Kongming's 4th Campaign: Wang Ping; Zhang He and Sima Yi

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Kongming's 4th Campaign: Wang Ping; Zhang He and Sima Yi

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:11 am

Discussion split from <a href="/viewtopic.php?t=2651">Talents of the three kingdoms</a> (James) Jan-28-2007

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Zhuge Liang assumbled some of the minority races from Shu's Southern province into a small unit and gave them to Wang Ping. The unit of three thousand took on and was on equal footing with Wei's army of six thousand lead by Zhang He, according to history.)


Please could you tell me more about this? Source, when it happend, that sort of thing?

Despite that, his real life was a tragedy. After his defect with Cao Cao, his whole family of 200+ was murdered. He and his brother, Ma Dai, left for Zhang Lu, and he started a new family. But soon he was forced to surrender to Liu Bei, and his new family left in Huang Zong was again murdered by Zhang Lu. The whole Ma family, pratically, was left with him and his brother.


1) if you rebel against a powerful state while your father is in the capital, you put the father at risk and your family should you lose.

2) how was he forced to surrender?
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Unread postby ZhaoZiLon » Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:14 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Zhuge Liang assumbled some of the minority races from Shu's Southern province into a small unit and gave them to Wang Ping. The unit of three thousand took on and was on equal footing with Wei's army of six thousand lead by Zhang He, according to history.)

Please could you tell me more about this? Source, when it happend, that sort of thing?


This was during Zhuge Liang's 4th northern campaign, also the first time for KongMing to go against Sima Yi.

Zhuge Liang lead the main army to Chi San, and set up his main camp there. Sima Yi also position his main army close to the Shu army. Zhuge Liang provided Wang Ping with three thousand of the so-called Mu Dong Fei Quan - loosely translate as the Invisible Flying Army - an army made up or largely minorities from the South. He left Wang Ping to surround Chi San, and then indicated that he would take the rest of the army further north, and will position the Shu army to take on the Wei main camp. But before Sima Yi can react, Zhuge Liang suddenly turned west and instead headed for the Liang province - an area that Sima Yi initially thought KongMing would not really bother with given its far location. Sima Yi panicked and send Kwok Chun to reinforce the Liang defence with him following up the rest of the Wei army. At the Liang province, Kwok Chun and Wei Yan engaged in initial battle and Wei Yan defeated the Wei army, subseqeuntly surrounding them in their camps. The second line Shu forces also arrived later and have managed to cut off the Wei army at Liang with Sima Yi's main forces. Shu forces also took the oppurtunity to harvest the grain at the Liang province and reinforced their supplies. When Sima Yi's main forces arrived he saw that he could not connect with the forces at Liang, and Shu's army has already completed their defensive setup. With little option, Sima Yi simply set up opposing camps and waited for Shu's supplies to run out. Zhuge Liang made multiple attempts to engage Sima Yi but was basically ignored by the Wei army. Several times Zhuge Liang would fake retreat by falling slightly back, in the hopes to tempt Sima Yi for a battle. But Sima Yi would simply 'plug the camp up and move them forward', ignoring any taunting by Shu's army.

Few months have passed, and Zhuge Liang started to worry about his supplies. But even more anxious were the Wei generals, lead by veteran Zhang He. They don't understand why the Wei army, with their superior numbers and plentiful supplies, is basically refusing to engage Shu army on any level. Zhang Hu suggested a bold plan where Sima Yi would lead several battlions to engage Zhuge Liang directly, and he would also lead another army, head back south, and attack the back of Wang Ping's army at Chi San. He requested an army of double that of Wang Ping - six thousand soilders. He estimated that once Wang Ping is vanquished, his forces at Chi San would completely cut off Zhuge Liang's escape and supply routes and basically it would be JieTing all over again.

Sima Yi did not want to engage KongMing at all, but at the end gave in to the pressure of the Wei generals, and agreed with the plan. He send a few battlions to set up an ambush next to Shu's main camp. The idea was that he would draw out Shu's forces, and when the timing is right the ambush would attack Shu's army from the flank. At the same time, Zhang He would also lead his army to take out Wang Ping. If all goes well, Shu's army would be completely vanquished.

Soon Wang Ping got worded that Zhang He is coming. He lead his special army and set up defence at Chi San. Even with double the numbers, Zhang He could not even get close to Shu's camp at Chi San. Meanwhile, the ambush was detected by Kong Ming's scouts, and Kong Ming sent Wei Yan on a 'Search-And-Destory' mission. Wei Yan located the ambush and almost crushed the Wei forces. Knowing his plan is out, Sima Yi withdrew his main forces back to the main camp, with Zhang He closely following. Wei locked their gates again and waited and prayed that Shu's supplies will run out soon.

And Shu's supplies did run out, but not before Li Yan falsify Liu Chan's order for a complete Shu army retreat. Reluctantly, Zhuge Liang pulled out his army. Desparate to get even with the Shy army, Sima Yi ordered Zhang He to follow on the Shu army despite Zhang's protest. Zhang was later killed by one of Zhuge Liang's ambush.

This story is well documented in SGG - the history book. I don't know the exact section but the bit about the minority army forces should be in Wang Ping's section.
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Unread postby ZhaoZiLon » Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:23 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:
Despite that, his real life was a tragedy. After his defect with Cao Cao, his whole family of 200+ was murdered. He and his brother, Ma Dai, left for Zhang Lu, and he started a new family. But soon he was forced to surrender to Liu Bei, and his new family left in Huang Zong was again murdered by Zhang Lu. The whole Ma family, pratically, was left with him and his brother.


1) if you rebel against a powerful state while your father is in the capital, you put the father at risk and your family should you lose.

2) how was he forced to surrender?


1) Yup, agree.
2) I probably shouldn't used the word 'forced', but he was not having the best times at Zhang Lu and basically decided to leave to seek better options. At that time Liu Bei send Li Fei to recruit him and he initially agreed. Later when Liu Bei was attacking Liu Zhang at Cheung Du, Liu Zhang send to ask for help from Zhang Lu. Not knowing any better, Zhang Lu send Ma Chao for reenforcement and that's when Ma Chao joined Liu's forces. Zhang Lu took out his revenge and embarassement on Ma Chao's remaining families.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Jan 28, 2007 12:07 pm

I'm looking at the translated Wang Ping bio and it isn't there though it could be in an untranslated note?
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
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Unread postby ZhaoZiLon » Sun Jan 28, 2007 12:39 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:I'm looking at the translated Wang Ping bio and it isn't there though it could be in an untranslated note?


To be honest not sure where the reference is...I'll do a search and hopefully get back to you. But the mention of these Southern Minority armies have been made in several 3K Chinese books.
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Unread postby ZhaoZiLon » Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:03 pm

ZhaoZiLon wrote:
Dong Zhou wrote:I'm looking at the translated Wang Ping bio and it isn't there though it could be in an untranslated note?


To be honest not sure where the reference is...I'll do a search and hopefully get back to you. But the mention of these Southern Minority armies have been made in several 3K Chinese books.


Ok, if you read Chinese one of the reference is here.

The official unit is called 无当飞军.

http://ks.cn.yahoo.com/question/1307011300111.html

The historical reference came from 华阳国志, or Wah Yeung Gao Zhi (sorry I'm real bad with pronuncing Chinese in english, can someone else help here?).

The text above also mention their other achievenments, and their sad ending. Apparently the whole unit was vanquished by Wei forces during one of the last Jiang Wei campaign - same time their commander Zheng Yi 张嶷 was killed. This would makes some sense, as Zheng Yi was for a while the governor of the Southern Province.

I'm sure someone else in this board would know about these guys..maybe we should make this a thread of its one rather than hijacking this thread.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:31 pm

Feel free, I'm afraid I can't read Chinese but thank you
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Unread postby James » Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:45 pm

It is odd to see Sima Yi give in to his officers when he knew better. It is even more unusual to see him attacking a second time because he was defeated the first time. How often have you seen him making choices like that?

ZhaoZiLon wrote:The historical reference came from 华阳国志, or Wah Yeung Gao Zhi (sorry I'm real bad with pronuncing Chinese in english, can someone else help here?).

<i>Hua Yang Guozhi</i> 华阳国志
Hua 华 can be a surname, but this seems more like some record of Taoism (or some other cultural element) 阳 in China? Those look like the Simplified Chinese characters. Anyway, it is a source quoted by ol’ Pei Songzhi in some biographies. A more knowledgeable member will no doubt know more than me. :)
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Unread postby Zhilong » Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:24 pm

Should be careful about accepting the account in HYGZ for that campaign as it conflicts with the Jin Shu account and possibly even some existing accounts in SGZ. There are also some known fabrications in that book which have been pointed out before. Almost all the equisite victories by ZL come from that source and yet there is no mention of them in Liu Shan's memorials unlike his other achievements.
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Unread postby Jordan » Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:44 pm

Yep, I read about that from Cup Cake Kid at Koei Forums. I quoted a post of his in my bio thread.

Thank you for the information ZhaoZilong and Zhilong. I will make use of it in the current biography I am making. From what I heard, most of the time that Zhuge Liang won a great victory, he sent a memorial to Liu Shan. He also sent one after his first campaign, which was a disaster, though.

Is the account that ZhaoZilong describes in his above post parallel to the one from HYGZ?
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