Yuan Shu and Yuan Shao’s Relationship

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Yuan Shu and Yuan Shao’s Relationship

Unread postby shibusawa » Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:45 am

Split from Three Kingdoms questions thread to serve as a discussion topic for the relationship between Yuan Shao and Yuan Shu. Also split to make the information easier to find one day down the road.

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Ok, I apologize if this has been explained before. I did a search and didn't really find anything regarding it.

Why did Yuan Shao and Shu no longer get along after Anti-Dong Coalition fell apart?

I mean, it seemed pretty extreme that they formed actual alliances with Liu Biao and Sun Jian to keep each other apart. Whatever happened must have been pretty serious to cause them to want each other dead.
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Unread postby Jordan » Sat Jan 27, 2007 9:50 am

I forget exactly, but I think that Yuan Shu dissed Yuan Shao's lineage somehow. Other than that, I imagine that it was mainly a typical power-struggle/territorial conflict sort of thing...
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:11 am

I think Yuan Shu claimed Yuan Shao was the son of a concubine before the other lords or something like that
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Unread postby Starscream » Sat Jan 27, 2007 3:10 pm

Yuan Shu was the younger cousin of Yuan Shao in history. The reason why Yuan Shu and Yuan Shao were not friendly was because Yuan Shu was not on good terms with Liu Biao and allied with Gongsun Zan. Yuan Shao was not on good terms with Gongsun Zan and allied himself with Liu Biao. Such political differences drove them apart.
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Unread postby James » Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:38 pm

I do remember the lineage insult—but who was it from? For some reason I wondered if it was Yuan Shao insulting Yuan Shu. I can't even remember the specifics of the insult. I'll have to try and find it again...
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Unread postby Jordan » Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:12 pm

I'm almost certain it's in the online version of Crispigny's Generals of the South (under 'Sun Jian's' chapter). I'm also pretty certain that it was Shu insulting Shao. If this computer wasn't weird with .pdf files, I would try to find it...
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Unread postby James » Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:51 pm

Generals of the South, Chapter 2 p. 119 wrote:Sun Jian had captured Luoyang in about the third month of the Chinese year, but even as he was fighting there the alliance against Dong Zhuo had come to an end, and the allies had ended all pretence of co-operation. Yuan Shu, who regarded himself as the head of his family, was jealous of the prestige enjoyed by Yuan Shao as leader of the alliance, and he spread stories against him, saying that "Shao is not a true son of the Yuan clan" and "Shao is our family slave." When Yuan Shao heard about this he was predictably furious. (68)

(68): <i>HHS</i> 74A/64A, 2373, says that the father of Yuan Shao was Yuan Cheng, and <i>HHS</i> 75/65, 2438, says that the father of Yuan Shu was Yuan Feng, who had been Minister over the Masses in the reign of Emperor Ling. The two men could therefore have been cousins, and Yuan Shu is described as the younger cousin in SGZ 6, 207.

Yuan Shu, you rascal! :lol:

This was in… what… AD 191? So this isn’t an insult that drove the two apart through the better portion of their careers. It is, however, exactly the sort of line one might expect from Yuan Shu, perhaps among the most colorful officers of the era. I imagine he managed to insult Yuan Shao on plenty of occasions prior to this. :P
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Unread postby shibusawa » Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:01 am

Alright, thank you very much everyone! If I think of any other questions, I'll be sure to toss them this way again. :D
Last edited by shibusawa on Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Jordan » Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:04 am

Shao is our family slave! Yes! I remember that now. Great line, and exactly the sort of thing I could expect from Yuan Shu, one of my favorite characters of this era. >;)

Thank you for finding that James.
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Unread postby James » Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:18 am

shibusawa wrote:Alright, thank you very much everyone! If I think of any other questions, I'll be sure to toss them this way again. :D

Sure thing! And if you ever want to chat about something, see us for that too. :)

SlickSlicer wrote:Shao is our family slave! Yes! I remember that now. Great line, and exactly the sort of thing I could expect from Yuan Shu, one of my favorite characters of this era. >;)

Thank you for finding that James.

Haha. No problem. It is funny. The more I read about Yuan Shu—the more I think about his wonderful antics—the more I wind up loving that crazy bastard. To think that so many strange and outlandish stories and events could be centered around a single person. Everything from declaring himself to his death in the novel because he didn’t have his ‘honey water’. Haha… I can see why he has a following.
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