Discussing Liu Bei’s Military Career

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Tue Jan 30, 2007 4:16 am

Tan_Binrui wrote:
LiuBeiwasGreat wrote: he defeated Jin Xuan in southern Jing, along side with Zhou Yu he defeated Cao Cao's first attempt to cross the river at Chi Bi, he defeated Liu Zhang's best generals over and over again on the way to Cheng Du (and historically Zhuge Liang was not with him during the fighting it was Liu Bei making the plans and leading the troops) plus Han Zhong.


And it was looking so good in the beginning...

If I remember correctly, it was either Zhang Fei or Zhao Yun who defeated Jin Xuan in the south... not that that's a showing of skill, as Jin Xuan's own staff betrayed him (which led to his death).

Cao Cao's first attempt to cross the river was halted by Zhou Yu alone (he commanded some 30,000 troops). Only after Cao Cao was pushed back did Liu Bei and Liu Qi send 10,000 troops each. Plus, in the battle at Chi Bi, Liu Bei had no part.

In Han Zhong, Cao Cao wasn't even at Han Zhong until after Xiahou Yuan lost. After that, it was back to a heavy contest between the Shu army and Zhang He. When Cao Cao got there, it didn't take a single fight for Cao Cao to see the battle was lost, and he made the remaining army retreat. No battle involved Cao Cao in Han Zhong.

Other than that, I agree with you. Liu Bei was a skilled commander. Not great (depends on your definition of great), but good. He lead well, and the people respected him. That's all I could ask of a general of any rank.


I am sorry, i need to specify when i use history instead of the novel.

In history it was Liu Bei who led the army agaisnt Jin Xuan and that was the only battle in southern Jing, the rest of the administrators surrendered without a fight then. Jin Xuan was the only one who died and it is because Liu Bei executed him. (not Jin Xuan's own staff)

The first battle at Chi Bi (not the fire attack) was with Liu Bei and Zhou Yu fighting and defeating Cao Cao's advanced guard who crossed the river. The fire attack at Wu Lin came later.

Cao Cao did attack Liu Bei after Xiahou Yuan died and Zhang He retreated. It is mentioned in Fa Zheng's bios an event when Cao Cao ordered his archers to shoot into Liu Bei's camp and Liu Bei refused to retreat standing as arrows fell around him. FA Zheng stood infront of Liu Bei to stop any arrows from hitting him and when Liu Bei called out to Fa Zheng to be careful Fa Zheng said something about how he would be willing to sacrifice himself if Liu Bei insisted on staying so after hearing this Liu Bei withdrew his forces. Also there was Zhao Yun's empty city stratagy which happened historically. There was fighitng at Han Zhong when Cao Cao arrived. Cao Cao's forces could make no headway agaisnt Liu Bei's defenses so they started defecting to Liu Bei's side and this is when Cao Cao withdrew. (also this is when Wang Ping defected to Liu Bei)
"If you can't drink a lobbyist's whiskey, take his money, sleep with his women and still vote against him in the morning, you don't belong in politics."
LiuBeiwasGreat
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2677
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:13 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Unread postby Tan_Binrui » Tue Jan 30, 2007 7:58 am

Is Liu Bei fighting Cao Cao in Liu Bei's SGZ bio? Because I don't see it mentioned in Zhou Yu's. The only other biography that mentions it is Cao Cao's when it says he lost to Liu Bei. But that bio was summing that up as the entire Chi Bi, so it's generally ignored.

I'm wondering where you got that information about Han Zhong from. As far as I've read, very little fighting occured when Cao Cao came to Han Zhong, and any fighting that did happen could hardly be called a real battle, as it was mostly simple pursuits or skirmishes.
"Because he has died, there is no more room for death in him." -- Lao Tzu
User avatar
Tan_Binrui
Langzhong
 
Posts: 464
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:42 am
Location: Orange County, CA

Unread postby Shadowlink » Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:52 pm

Tan_Binrui wrote:Is Liu Bei fighting Cao Cao in Liu Bei's SGZ bio? Because I don't see it mentioned in Zhou Yu's. The only other biography that mentions it is Cao Cao's when it says he lost to Liu Bei. But that bio was summing that up as the entire Chi Bi, so it's generally ignored.

I'm wondering where you got that information about Han Zhong from. As far as I've read, very little fighting occured when Cao Cao came to Han Zhong, and any fighting that did happen could hardly be called a real battle, as it was mostly simple pursuits or skirmishes.
Fa Zheng sgz bio states that fa zheng was well trrusted even more than zhuge liang so he was in that battle protecting him, Zhao Yun did a empty city ruse as he stated and we all know that is true.
User avatar
Shadowlink
Langzhong
 
Posts: 4882
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2002 5:57 pm

Unread postby James » Tue Jan 30, 2007 4:40 pm

Tan_Binrui wrote:Is Liu Bei fighting Cao Cao in Liu Bei's SGZ bio? Because I don't see it mentioned in Zhou Yu's. The only other biography that mentions it is Cao Cao's when it says he lost to Liu Bei. But that bio was summing that up as the entire Chi Bi, so it's generally ignored.

The events of Chibi are recorded over several biographies and include some contradictions (probably due to differences in the way countries recorded their own histories). When I get a moment I might be able to dig it all up, but I know it has been discussed in old Chibi threads. Maybe someone here knows off the top of their head.
Kongming’s Archives – Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel, History and Games
“ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
  — Ben Franklin
User avatar
James
Sausaged Fish
Sausaged Fish
 
Posts: 18007
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:21 pm
Location: Happy Valley, UT

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:10 pm

Tan_Binrui wrote:Is Liu Bei fighting Cao Cao in Liu Bei's SGZ bio? Because I don't see it mentioned in Zhou Yu's. The only other biography that mentions it is Cao Cao's when it says he lost to Liu Bei. But that bio was summing that up as the entire Chi Bi, so it's generally ignored.

I'm wondering where you got that information about Han Zhong from. As far as I've read, very little fighting occured when Cao Cao came to Han Zhong, and any fighting that did happen could hardly be called a real battle, as it was mostly simple pursuits or skirmishes.


It is in Zhou Yu's bio.
"Sun Quan dispatched Zhou Yu, Cheng Pu and other Wu generals to meet Liu Bei in order to consolidate their forces against Cao Cao’s army. The army of the Sun-Liu alliance engaged Cao Cao’s army at Chi Bi. During then, Cao Cao’s army was already having problems with many soldiers falling sick. As such, during the initial engagement, Cao Cao’s army was promptly defeated and retreated back to the northern shore of the river Yang Tze."

The fire attack is later as shown here
"Seeing that Cao Cao’s army was numerous, Huang Gai felt that it would be difficult to resist them for long. However, he observed that Cao Cao’s ships were linked together and he suggested to Zhou Yu that it was actually possible to repel the enemies if they launched a fire attack at them. The suggestion was accepted and preparations were made for the fireboats (boats stuffed with inflammable materials). Subsequently, a letter was sent to Cao Cao falsely claiming that Huang Gai intended to surrender. The ruse was successful and the soldiers of Wei were anticipating the arrival of Huang Gai. At that moment, Huang Gai arrived and set his fireboats on fire. Aided by the strong winds and the fact that Cao Cao’s ships were chained together, the fire quickly spread throughout Cao Cao’s navy and even to the naval camps on the shore. Within moments, the raging inferno resulted in heavy casualties in Cao Cao’s army. Cao Cao was forced to retreat and defend Nan prefecture against the victorious allied armies. Meanwhile, Liu Bei and Zhou Yu led their troops in pursuit. Nevertheless, Cao Cao himself had returned to the north after leaving Cao Ren to guard the city of Jiang Ling."

As you can see here there were too battles there. At first a combined Liu Bei Zhou Yu force defeated Cao Cao when he crossed the river and the second battle was when Huang Gai led the fire attack at Cao Cao's naval base at Wu Lin.

And as Shadowlink said Fa Zheng's bio has the incident with the arrows and Zhao Yun's bio mentions the empty city ruse.
"If you can't drink a lobbyist's whiskey, take his money, sleep with his women and still vote against him in the morning, you don't belong in politics."
LiuBeiwasGreat
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2677
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:13 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Unread postby Tan_Binrui » Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:15 pm

LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:
Tan_Binrui wrote:Is Liu Bei fighting Cao Cao in Liu Bei's SGZ bio? Because I don't see it mentioned in Zhou Yu's. The only other biography that mentions it is Cao Cao's when it says he lost to Liu Bei. But that bio was summing that up as the entire Chi Bi, so it's generally ignored.

I'm wondering where you got that information about Han Zhong from. As far as I've read, very little fighting occured when Cao Cao came to Han Zhong, and any fighting that did happen could hardly be called a real battle, as it was mostly simple pursuits or skirmishes.


It is in Zhou Yu's bio.
"Sun Quan dispatched Zhou Yu, Cheng Pu and other Wu generals to meet Liu Bei in order to consolidate their forces against Cao Cao’s army. The army of the Sun-Liu alliance engaged Cao Cao’s army at Chi Bi. During then, Cao Cao’s army was already having problems with many soldiers falling sick. As such, during the initial engagement, Cao Cao’s army was promptly defeated and retreated back to the northern shore of the river Yang Tze."


I just looked it up again and realized my memory of his biography wasn't as clear as I believed. Well put.
"Because he has died, there is no more room for death in him." -- Lao Tzu
User avatar
Tan_Binrui
Langzhong
 
Posts: 464
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:42 am
Location: Orange County, CA

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:53 am

Tan_Binrui wrote:
LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:
Tan_Binrui wrote:Is Liu Bei fighting Cao Cao in Liu Bei's SGZ bio? Because I don't see it mentioned in Zhou Yu's. The only other biography that mentions it is Cao Cao's when it says he lost to Liu Bei. But that bio was summing that up as the entire Chi Bi, so it's generally ignored.

I'm wondering where you got that information about Han Zhong from. As far as I've read, very little fighting occured when Cao Cao came to Han Zhong, and any fighting that did happen could hardly be called a real battle, as it was mostly simple pursuits or skirmishes.


It is in Zhou Yu's bio.
"Sun Quan dispatched Zhou Yu, Cheng Pu and other Wu generals to meet Liu Bei in order to consolidate their forces against Cao Cao’s army. The army of the Sun-Liu alliance engaged Cao Cao’s army at Chi Bi. During then, Cao Cao’s army was already having problems with many soldiers falling sick. As such, during the initial engagement, Cao Cao’s army was promptly defeated and retreated back to the northern shore of the river Yang Tze."


I just looked it up again and realized my memory of his biography wasn't as clear as I believed. Well put.


Well i am here to help :wink:
"If you can't drink a lobbyist's whiskey, take his money, sleep with his women and still vote against him in the morning, you don't belong in politics."
LiuBeiwasGreat
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2677
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:13 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Previous

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved