Wang Rui, Cao Yin and Sun Jian

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Wang Rui, Cao Yin and Sun Jian

Unread postby James » Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:16 pm

I read through a pretty interesting multi-page discussion <a href="/viewtopic.php?t=129&start=170">here at SoSZ</a> about whether <a href="http://kongming.net/encyclopedia/?search=497">Sun Jian</a> had committed a disloyal act in obeying the decree forged by <a href="http://kongming.net/encyclopedia/?search=1040">Cao Yin</a> calling for the death of <a href="http://kongming.net/encyclopedia/?search=1075">Wang Rui</a>. It didn't look like the discussion was resolved so I thought it might be interesting to chat about now!

1) From the Han perspective, did Sun Jian commit a dishonorable act in killing Wang Rui?
2) Was Wang Rui within his rights to have Cao Yin executed?
3) How should Cao Yin have responded?

The full discussion of these events takes place in Sun Jian’s <i>Sanguozhi</i> biography. The real details come in Pei Songzhi’s annotations, quoting <i>Wulu</i>.
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Unread postby Sun Gongli » Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:25 pm

The view adopted by both myself with what I read from Generals of the South:

Wang Rui and Cao Yin were simply two rivals within the Han. Neither one had a particularly great amount of authority, and Sun Jian could argue that he thought he was following genuine orders. It's safer to follow orders that may be forged than to not follow potentially valid orders. Keep in mind that sometimes, when people forged edicts, the edicts sometimes were even adopted as official use as a face-saving measure.

As for whether Sun Jian is dishonorable for following this: no, I don't think so. Wang Rui and Cao Yin are the dishonorable ones. Sun Jian was merely along for the ride. In addition, Sun Jian made strives that no other could make during the battle against Dong Zhuo, and despite being offered a healthy advancement from Dong Zhuo should he defect and not being trusted by his patron, Yuan Shu, Sun Jian gave a stellar performance and never faltered in his support for the Han. It was extremely honorable of Sun Jian to honor the graves of the emperors and to start the rebuilding process of Luoyang despite the danger to himself in such an isolated position with such weak, ineffectual allies.
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Re: Wang Rui, Cao Yin and Sun Jian

Unread postby Xu Yuan » Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:01 pm

James wrote:I read through a pretty interesting multi-page discussion <a href="/viewtopic.php?t=129&start=170">here at SoSZ</a> about whether <a href="http://kongming.net/encyclopedia/?search=497">Sun Jian</a> had committed a disloyal act in obeying the decree forged by <a href="http://kongming.net/encyclopedia/?search=1040">Cao Yin</a> calling for the death of <a href="http://kongming.net/encyclopedia/?search=1075">Wang Rui</a>. It didn't look like the discussion was resolved so I thought it might be interesting to chat about now!

1) From the Han perspective, did Sun Jian commit a dishonorable act in killing Wang Rui?
2) Was Wang Rui within his rights to have Cao Yin executed?
3) How should Cao Yin have responded?

The full discussion of these events takes place in Sun Jian’s <i>Sanguozhi</i> biography. The real details come in Pei Songzhi’s annotations, quoting <i>Wulu</i>.


I would say not, first I've heard of these fellows and a bit of an interesting story.

#1 No, he had no idea that the edict was forged, even if so Wang Rui forged a decree far beyond his power as a simple inspector. I believe Cao Yin to be in the right.

#2 Rivalry had begun the whole thing and Wang Rui started the conflict he got what he deserved in the end for such wanton hate.

#3 Cao Yin took advantage of a situation and he did well, the same edict was given to Cao Yin regarding his own death but there ws no one whom would kill him, that must mean he was at least trusted by the populace and the gentleman of the Han. Utilizing Sun Jian was also a brilliant stroke, it's a shame you don't see what happen's to the character of Cao Yin though.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:11 am

1) I think Sun Jian may have guessed that it wasn't a real edict but he needed the troops and he could get revenge for an earlier slight so he wasn't going to question it. I think that he did the right thing for the Han, he stopped a fight breaking out and used the troops to fight against Dongy.

2) No, I'm pretty sure Wang Rui was only doing it becuase he could command more men and was well away from the capital.

3) He did well and I think that for him, it was the right choice.
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Unread postby James » Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:36 pm

Where’s Exar Kun? You had a strong opinion on this! :P

Sun Gongli wrote:Wang Rui and Cao Yin were simply two rivals within the Han. Neither one had a particularly great amount of authority, and Sun Jian could argue that he thought he was following genuine orders. It's safer to follow orders that may be forged than to not follow potentially valid orders. Keep in mind that sometimes, when people forged edicts, the edicts sometimes were even adopted as official use as a face-saving measure.

That sure seems like the intelligent thing to do. But…

Sun Gongli wrote:As for whether Sun Jian is dishonorable for following this: no, I don't think so. Wang Rui and Cao Yin are the dishonorable ones. Sun Jian was merely along for the ride. In addition, Sun Jian made strives that no other could make during the battle against Dong Zhuo, and despite being offered a healthy advancement from Dong Zhuo should he defect and not being trusted by his patron, Yuan Shu, Sun Jian gave a stellar performance and never faltered in his support for the Han. It was extremely honorable of Sun Jian to honor the graves of the emperors and to start the rebuilding process of Luoyang despite the danger to himself in such an isolated position with such weak, ineffectual allies.

… do you think Sun Jian believed it to be real? I suppose we’ll never know on that count. But one thing I do suspect is that Sun Jian probably didn’t care. Given his conduct in dealing with Wang Rui, and their history, I suspect he was happy to have any excuse to kill him.

Does that tarnish his reputation as a general of Han? Nah, he was far more loyal than most.

Xu Yuan wrote:#1 No, he had no idea that the edict was forged, even if so Wang Rui forged a decree far beyond his power as a simple inspector. I believe Cao Yin to be in the right.

Interesting… you mentioned Wang Rui forging a document. From what I’ve read I know little about what happened between Wang Rui and Cao Yin—only that Wang Rui held a grudge with him and intended to have him executed, a right questionable relative to his given post.

Also, <i>Wulu</i> (quoted by Pei Songzhi) identifies Wang Rui as the Governor of Jingzhou. It is in Chen Shou's original <i>Sanguozhi</i> text that Wang Rui is identified as Imperial Inspector of Jingzhou. That's an important distinction because there is almost certainly no way he could have been acting within his rights as an Imperial Inspector, but if he were governor he would be somewhat more justified—though I still doubt he would have had the <i>jie</i> rights necessary to have Cao Yin executed without conferring with the capital.

As for his rank, at a glance <i>Wulu</i> makes more sense. Chen Shou's accounting is so abbreviated that it hardly seems thorough. He talked about how Sun Jian and Wang Rui had a grudge and simply mentions that Sun Jian had him killed while Wang Rui moved through his territory. That makes sense as an imperial inspector, but the much more detailed accounting provided by Pei Songzhi contradicts it.

Xu Yuan wrote:#2 Rivalry had begun the whole thing and Wang Rui started the conflict he got what he deserved in the end for such wanton hate.

What do you know about the beginning of this rivalry?

Xu Yuan wrote:#3 Cao Yin took advantage of a situation and he did well, the same edict was given to Cao Yin regarding his own death but there ws no one whom would kill him, that must mean he was at least trusted by the populace and the gentleman of the Han. Utilizing Sun Jian was also a brilliant stroke, it's a shame you don't see what happen's to the character of Cao Yin though.

I agree with you about Cao Yin. As long as Wang Rui was acting out of line, I don't blame him for getting Wang Rui killed. He really did do it in a fairly clever manner—especially using Sun Jian.

You mentioned another tidbit I knew nothing about though: Cao Yin receiving the same edict regarding his own death. When did this happen and what do we know about it? Is this the edict originally issued by Wang Rui? It would be nice to know more detail about it.

Dong Zhou wrote:1) I think Sun Jian may have guessed that it wasn't a real edict but he needed the troops and he could get revenge for an earlier slight so he wasn't going to question it. I think that he did the right thing for the Han, he stopped a fight breaking out and used the troops to fight against Dongy.

"Your thoughts are as my own."

Dong Zhou wrote:2) No, I'm pretty sure Wang Rui was only doing it becuase he could command more men and was well away from the capital.

Command more men? Do you suppose it was Wang Rui's intention to take Cao Yin's men? But yes, I doubt he would have been quite so brave close to the capital.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:42 pm

Interesting… you mentioned Wang Rui forging a document.


I'm intrested in this as well, I know Cao Yin forged an order for Sun Jian but Wang Rui, that isn't one I have heard of.

What do you know about the beginning of this rivalry?


Maybe Xu Yuan means it was Wang Rui who began the final chain of events with his claim that he would kill Yin? Certainly would be suprised if anybody knew

You mentioned another tidbit I knew nothing about though: Cao Yin receiving the same edict regarding his own death. When did this happen and what do we know about it? Is this the edict originally issued by Wang Rui? It would be nice to know more detail about it.


I would like to know about this as well.

Command more men? Do you suppose it was Wang Rui's intention to take Cao Yin's men? But yes, I doubt he would have been quite so brave close to the capital.


I made a hash of my post. Ok the dislike probably had a part in it but he had made no move before this time. Why? Away from the capital, so Cao Yin's death unlikely to ever be dealt with, given the current chaos, and perhaps a lack of big regional powers to take advantage of the disloyal act.

Another reason he might have wanted to do it is power. I'm not sure who the superior one was but a puppet could be installed in Cao Yin's place or Wang Rui promoted himself to the rank now open. The troops and land come with the package

Combination of factors really.
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Unread postby Xu Yuan » Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:51 pm

James wrote:
Xu Yuan wrote:#1 No, he had no idea that the edict was forged, even if so Wang Rui forged a decree far beyond his power as a simple inspector. I believe Cao Yin to be in the right.

Interesting… you mentioned Wang Rui forging a document. From what I’ve read I know little about what happened between Wang Rui and Cao Yin—only that Wang Rui held a grudge with him and intended to have him executed, a right questionable relative to his given post.

Also, <i>Wulu</i> (quoted by Pei Songzhi) identifies Wang Rui as the Governor of Jingzhou. It is in Chen Shou's original <i>Sanguozhi</i> text that Wang Rui is identified as Imperial Inspector of Jingzhou. That's an important distinction because there is almost certainly no way he could have been acting within his rights as an Imperial Inspector, but if he were governor he would be somewhat more justified—though I still doubt he would have had the <i>jie</i> rights necessary to have Cao Yin executed without conferring with the capital.

As for his rank, at a glance <i>Wulu</i> makes more sense. Chen Shou's accounting is so abbreviated that it hardly seems thorough. He talked about how Sun Jian and Wang Rui had a grudge and simply mentions that Sun Jian had him killed while Wang Rui moved through his territory. That makes sense as an imperial inspector, but the much more detailed accounting provided by Pei Songzhi contradicts it.


If it was common knowledge that Wang Rui wanted Cao Yin dead, someone that was in his own commandery , that's inexcuseable. He may have well have written a decree, if he was Governor, but where does Pei Songzhi get this information? If this were an event at the end of the Han wouldn't it be in the History of the Han? I believe the key to finding the truth lies in the middle. One can only assume that in both accounts that Wang Rui treated Sun Jian like garbage and talk down, plot to assassinate his own official's such as Cao Yin.
James wrote:
Xu Yuan wrote:#2 Rivalry had begun the whole thing and Wang Rui started the conflict he got what he deserved in the end for such wanton hate.

What do you know about the beginning of this rivalry?


I had... assumed that the grudge they held against one another had something to do with power and influence, or simply kowtowing to such a man as Wang Rui infuriated Cao Yin. whatever the case he got on the wrogn side of his "Lord". I see for no other reason that Wang Rui would want the man dead.

James wrote:
Xu Yuan wrote:#3 Cao Yin took advantage of a situation and he did well, the same edict was given to Cao Yin regarding his own death but there was no one whom would kill him, that must mean he was at least trusted by the populace and the gentleman of the Han. Utilizing Sun Jian was also a brilliant stroke, it's a shame you don't see what happen's to the character of Cao Yin though.


I agree with you about Cao Yin. As long as Wang Rui was acting out of line, I don't blame him for getting Wang Rui killed. He really did do it in a fairly clever manner—especially using Sun Jian.

You mentioned another tidbit I knew nothing about though: Cao Yin receiving the same edict regarding his own death. When did this happen and what do we know about it? Is this the edict originally issued by Wang Rui? It would be nice to know more detail about it.



I misread the biographies and I had made a grave error in those respects, I will look for more information on the two and see what I can come up with, I'd have to hope the end of the History of Han has something to deal with the two.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:07 pm

If it was common knowledge that Wang Rui wanted Cao Yin dead, someone that was in his own commandery , that's inexcuseable. He may have well have written a decree, if he was Governor, but where does Pei Songzhi get this information? If this were an event at the end of the Han wouldn't it be in the History of the Han? I believe the key to finding the truth lies in the middle. One can only assume that in both accounts that Wang Rui treated Sun Jian like garbage and talk down, plot to assassinate his own official's such as Cao Yin.


Information according to Professor Rafe de Crespigny says that the story comes from SGZ 46 (Wu 1), 1096 (8a-9b), the Biography of Sun Jian;
SGZ 46 (Wu 1), 1097 (8b) PC quoting Wu lu. The Wang Rui insult of Sun Jian comes from the Wu lu.

Wang Rui was from gentry class, Sun Jian a merchant's son so it isn't too surprising Wang Rui was a little unhappy at such an upstart rising so fast and getting all the credit. Wang Rui showed no wish to harm Sun Jian despite this nor had a record for doing such so the Cao Yin suggests something a lot more personal or greedy.

No decree is mentioned but he let his intentions be known so I imagine he talked openly about it. News of such sorts does not talk long to travel; it isn't surprising Wang Rui heard of it.

I had... assumed that the grudge they held against one another had something to do with power and influence, or simply kowtowing to such a man as Wang Rui infuriated Cao Yin. whatever the case he got on the wrogn side of his "Lord". I see for no other reason that Wang Rui would want the man dead.


We don't know Cao Yin's background but quite simply, the two may simply have not got along (think our simrtk characters) and Wang Rui sensed an opportunity to a) get rid of an annoyance, b) gain more power
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Unread postby James » Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:17 am

Dong Zhou wrote:I made a hash of my post. Ok the dislike probably had a part in it but he had made no move before this time. Why? Away from the capital, so Cao Yin's death unlikely to ever be dealt with, given the current chaos, and perhaps a lack of big regional powers to take advantage of the disloyal act.

I guess this depends on whether you believe Chen Shou's accounting of events, or Pei Songzhi's. Sources agree that Cao Yin was prefect of Wuling but conflict in making Wang Rui either the <i>Inspector</i> of Jingzhou or the <i>Governor</i> of Jingzhou. That’s a <i>huge</i> difference!

As Inspector of Jingzhou he stands to gain nothing more than doing away with an enemy by having Cao Yin killed. As Governor of Jingzhou, though, the matter becomes more interesting. Cao Yin, as Prefect of Wuling, should be his subordinate in this case, but if Cao Yin was not obedient it may have presented problems—especially if Wang Rui planned to travel north to attack Dong Zhuo. Killing Cao Yin, who was perhaps insubordinate, would have solved both problems—and given Wang Rui a chance to replace him with someone a little more reliable.

As mentioned before I believe Pei Songzhi’s accounting to be accurate.

Dong Zhou wrote:Another reason he might have wanted to do it is power. I'm not sure who the superior one was but a puppet could be installed in Cao Yin's place or Wang Rui promoted himself to the rank now open. The troops and land come with the package

Makes good sense with Wang Rui acting as Governor of Jingzhou.

Xu Yuan wrote:If it was common knowledge that Wang Rui wanted Cao Yin dead, someone that was in his own commandery , that's inexcuseable. He may have well have written a decree, if he was Governor, but where does Pei Songzhi get this information? If this were an event at the end of the Han wouldn't it be in the History of the Han? I believe the key to finding the truth lies in the middle. One can only assume that in both accounts that Wang Rui treated Sun Jian like garbage and talk down, plot to assassinate his own official's such as Cao Yin.

It all comes from <i>Wulu</i>, as outlined by Dong Zhou.

As Governor of Jingzhou it doesn't seem too great a stretch that he might take authority to execute a subordinate. From my understanding, though, even in a position as powerful as this he would still need approval from the capital to execute one of his prefects. And yes, Wang Rui was apparently fond of treating Sun Jian as garbage because he was of lowly birth.

Xu Yuan wrote:I misread the biographies and I had made a grave error in those respects, I will look for more information on the two and see what I can come up with, I'd have to hope the end of the History of Han has something to deal with the two.

That would be excellent. It is certainly possible that this feud might be mentioned in another source such as the <i>Hou Han shu</i>. If you find anything do let us know? I'm most curious about the details that put the two of them at odds in the first place. :)

Dong Zhou wrote:Wang Rui was from gentry class, Sun Jian a merchant's son so it isn't too surprising Wang Rui was a little unhappy at such an upstart rising so fast and getting all the credit. Wang Rui showed no wish to harm Sun Jian despite this nor had a record for doing such so the Cao Yin suggests something a lot more personal or greedy.

That's one possibility. I noticed a possible alternative, however. From what I've read it seems Sun Jian, though he despised Wang Rui for the way he treated him, may have done a good job at keeping his feelings to himself. Wang Rui may not have recognized Sun Jian to be a threat in the first place! There is also a third possibility: that Wang Rui feared Sun Jian too much to take any action against him, but that seems the least likely possibility given his willingness to be rude to Jian.
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Unread postby Xu Yuan » Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:54 pm

I know it's not really supporting anything but, are we to assume that Chen zhou made the same mistake twice?

"When Emperor Ling passed away, Liu Biao was appointed as the Inspector of Jing province, taking over the post from Wang Rui." That would assume that he took the Inspector's post from a living Wang Rui but wouldn't that confabulate part's of history as we know?


Then taking all the information I could find on the two (which sadly enough came from a debate on this very site...)

Lu Kang wrote:

He most certainly did not know that Cao Yin's order was a forged document. However, like I pointed out, there are many possible ways it could have been legal had everything been actually done. Since it could be legal, and Sun Jian, who's loyalty is not suspect considering his later (and earlier) actions, he would certainly find the order to be legal to his knowledge of the laws. Since Wang Rui was disloyal as proven by the fact that he was trying to illlegaly kill Cao Yin, Sun Jian was inactuality doing the right thing. The fact that Cao Yin was able to forge a convincing document to make it seem as though Sun Jian had an edict to kill him is of little use, considering it was the right thing to do.

Exar Kun wrote:


I don't think Wang Rui was right to do what he did,but he certainly could have had cause.There is no explanation of what their disagreement was.Suppose Cao Yin was opposing sending troops from his commandery to the capital?Certainly possible.And if Cao Yin had a problem with Wang Rui,he needs to report him,not falsify orders and have him killed.

Lu Kang wrote:
2) You'll have to quote the Han Law or the Imperial Edict that says that, I'm not just going to take your word on this one. Is this something established in Han law, or is this something that your just stating as "common sense" or something that "should have happened".

3) Right there you said you don't think that Wang Rui was right. That's correct, he most certainly under no circumstance was allowed to do that. By your "Definition" he is a traitor because he was trying to kill an apparently loyal Han minister without going through the due process of law.


As I've been saying, it's up to the loyal to enforce the law, and from all we know, Wang Rui was acting completely and utterly out of line. While the order may have been "illegal" in the eyes of the Han Court it still have been forged impressively to resemble a real order from Wen Yi in Jingzhou, out lining real Wang Rui crimes (or fake ones) that Wang Rui should be prosecuted for. Since Wang Rui alraedy was acting in a out of line fashion and was threatening the lives of the innocent and loyal, he had to be taken out. Thirdly, Cao Yin may have made the order so impressive that it was for all extensive purposes, a real order that could have happened. The only way that Sun Jian could confirm it would be to go to the Emperor, and of course that was impossible in the situation. Such as hacvng been processed prior to Dong Zhuo coming to the capitol. Fourthly, you assume that if Sun Jian could not tell if it was legal or not he was stupid, and this of course is a great lie. As I've pointed out previously, the order could have been legally some imporabable ways, but possible all the same. Since the order is fake, the odds that an improbable event becomes feasible and probable rise tenfold. Unless you can eliminate every single different possible way, then there is a possible way it could happen, and if there is a way that it can happen, considering the odds, the false letter, Cao Yin's effort to convince someone else, and of course Sun Jian's undying loyalty before and after the event, one can assume that Sun Jian was not acting illegally, or at the very least was acting illegally but was acting in the best interest of the people and the Han


That's just to put all the available info. up on the map about the two.

Unfortunately I can't find a good translation of the Hou Han Shu, I would ask Lady Wu maybe to skin through it?
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