Jiang Wei’s contribution to Shu’s downfall?

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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed May 09, 2007 6:06 am

Zhang Yi or Liao Hua spring to mind, reliable generals who would have probably handled the political/civil side better then Jiang Wei.
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Unread postby Tan_Binrui » Wed May 09, 2007 6:56 am

Luo Xian, as well, comes to mind.
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Unread postby Hannibal ad portas » Wed May 09, 2007 8:49 am

To tell u the truth i dont think anyone in Shu could of done a better job than Jiang Wei, Zhang Yi and Liao Hua were medicore generals.
Jiang Wei was the best choice and probably the most talented general Shu had at that time.
I wish the likes of Wang Ping and Jiang Wan had had Liao Hua's life span.

Fu Qian seemed capable and Luo Xian was talented aswell and i think Huo Yi the son of Huo Jun was supposed to be talented not to sure i may be wrong.
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Unread postby FuguNabe » Wed May 09, 2007 9:04 am

^ Sure Jiang Wei was arguably Shu's best after Fei Yi's death however it would do for him to chance with other people's opinion around him. Zhang Yi which you deemed mediocre have had some superior suggestions for Jiang Wei to heed which was ignored. Many here would say Jiang Wei's too one-track-minded to push offensive northern campaigns and ignored their reduced resources dilemma amongst other things.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed May 09, 2007 9:21 am

As a commander in the field, Jiang Wei was the best choice, as a commander in chief, sometimes a mediocre general with better political sense is better suited for the task. He Jin probably would have been a poor general, he made a good Commander in chief, Jiang Wan and Fei Yi were never brilliant generals but again they suited the role.
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Unread postby Hannibal ad portas » Wed May 09, 2007 9:28 am

FuguNabe wrote:^ Sure Jiang Wei was arguably Shu's best after Fei Yi's death however it would do for him to chance with other people's opinion around him. Zhang Yi which you deemed mediocre have had some superior suggestions for Jiang Wei to heed which was ignored. Many here would say Jiang Wei's too one-track-minded to push offensive northern campaigns and ignored their reduced resources dilemma amongst other things.


I agree on that if he did listen to his generals he may of done alot better. And yea Zhang Yi did give sound advice im a big fan of Zhang Yi's though i like Zhang Ni alot more but i was replyin to Antiochus and Dong Zhou's posts who could lead the army instead of Jiang Wei and to me Zhang Yi was a good general but not one to lead the army i was just comparing him to the likes of Deng Ai and Jiang Wei thats why i called him medicore.
Jiang Wei needed a General like Chen Tai at his side or even better they needed a Chen Tai instead of a Jiang Wei!
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed May 09, 2007 9:30 am

Would Jiang Wei had listened to Chen Tai? He didn't seem to listen to anyone's advice. I still think that while Jiang Wei was a superior general, the others mentioned would have made superior commander in chiefs for the reasons I gave in my last post.
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Unread postby Hannibal ad portas » Wed May 09, 2007 9:58 am

Sorry didnt see your last post!

Probably not listining wasnt one of his strong points!

And i have to agree if the likes of Fei Yi was in charge it probably would of been alot better and after thinkin about it Zhang Yi may of like you said would may of been a better CIC being that he was level headed and had to me better foresight than Jiang Wei!
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Unread postby Mikhail » Wed May 09, 2007 12:52 pm

Sun Gongli wrote:I think a more accurate hockey analogy would be that his team got swept in four games, but they were all close, one-goal games. I don't think that Jiang Wei scored any victories at all, but he did greatly inconvenience Wei. Which just wasn't enough. Three smelly tanners could outdo Zhuge Liang, but Jiang Wei was two tanners short. He didn't have the skill to fulfill the role of Regent, and he didn't have the political know-how, either. That doesn't make him worthless. It makes him someone who probably should have been given a front line position and not command of the entire army.


Actually thats a pretty great analogy. It has everything it needs. Some sort of desperation, coupled with a concern for running out of time. I used the whole powerplay scenario to show that they became "shorthanded" after all their campaigns, but yours is definitely the better of the two.
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Re: Jiang Wei’s contribution to Shu’s downfall?

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:53 am

Tan_Binrui wrote:Luo Xian, as well, comes to mind.


sorry for barging in. was reading and lurking on the website for a while.

nope, he's not. more likely, Jiang Wei simply didn't really know him that well since he's a type that doesn't really trust anyone except himself. more overly, Luo Xian was sent to guard Yong An as soon as Huang Hao controlled the court. Theres nothing he can do to prevent it. Huang Hao even placed a 'watch dog' to keep an eye on Luo Xian. (for more info, read Huang Hao's wiki, the guy's slippery as eel really as he even escaped from Deng Ai plan in executing him)

Dong Zhou wrote:Zhang Yi or Liao Hua spring to mind, reliable generals who would have probably handled the political/civil side better then Jiang Wei.


Zhang Yi is ok, he has experience in civil office on his early career. He also has experience in real battle against Wei.
as for Liao Hua, there's a quote saying: "If there are no great generals left in Shu, Liao Hua will be the vanguard." it's just simply stated that he is not fit to command an army. He has experience in combat yes, but as CiC or civil officer, i doubt he could do better than Zhang Yi.

according history, Dong Jue wasn't corrupt at all. However, despite him and Fan Jian's effort, they're unable to control Huang Hao.
As for Zhuge Zhan, idk i dont seems to favor him that much. He didnt objected in Jiang Wei's plan to change Wei Yan's defense nor he do anything to keep Huang Hao in check. So i doubt he's a good civil officer either. Yes, he did died in an attempt to defend Shu against Deng Ai. I simply cant picture him more than a reckless warrior.

Huo Yi suffer the same fate as Luo Xian. Although his concern on the state and loyalty is respectable. both general simply has no power to stand against Huang Hao.

Furthermore according to history, Huang Hao entered the court from 220. thats even when ZGL still alive, im not going to badmouthing ZGL about his shortcoming in seeing Huang Hao as threat, he is simply bad at reading people even Huang Hao. But, im going to say, Huang Hao already slowly 'poisoned' Liu Shan with his honeyed words for 40 years. It's hard to change one's mind who already corrupted for that long. I would simply described Huang Hao as Puppeteer, Liu Shan is his Puppet. Yan Yu is his watch dog.
the court simply has no good civil officer with the same caliber as Jiang Wan, Fei Yi, Dong Yun and to least extend Lu Yi. as for Jiang Wei, well i would agree that he is a good front line general, politics was never his forte and his negligence in that matter proven it. I would agree as well for him to return to capital to handle civil matter or try to find a capable talent to handle it. Perhaps sending a memorial to Liu Shan to execute Huang Hao was his attempt to do that, in order to find out whether its safe for him to return to capital. As it is proven Liu Shan far more trusted Huang Hao, so he botched the idea on returning. (idk, Jiang Wei's behavior is rather complex than just a glory seeker, the man's probably was just too serious and too focused. you know, serious and focused people tend to lost their way)
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