Jiang Wei’s contribution to Shu’s downfall?

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Unread postby Aeneas » Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:04 pm

Pride was a thing the people did not really seem to understand back then. It was either arrogance, or not noticed.
War: terrorism with a larger budget

Atheism: the belief of those who have none
User avatar
Aeneas
Student
 
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 5:57 pm
Location: Netherlands

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:09 pm

I would say his attitude towards opposing commanders was something arrogant, warned against Deng Ai, he was so very dismissive.
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”

my tumbler

my officer analysis
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 16385
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Unread postby Shadowlink » Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:12 pm

Aeneas wrote:Pride was a thing the people did not really seem to understand back then. It was either arrogance, or not noticed.
I agree, they can't blame him that much. He had pressure on his shoulder and no one is getting any younger
User avatar
Shadowlink
Langzhong
 
Posts: 4883
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2002 5:57 pm

Unread postby Antiochus » Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:57 pm

I guess he was aware that with him dead, no one could have defended Shu from eventual Wei invasion. Althought he did fail to defend it while alive, he did hold his ground. The actual mistake was mostly made by Zhuge Zhan, who pushed too far after he repelled Deng Zhong initial attack.

To that, we can also add the Huang Hao factor, who made Liu Chan believe that Wei would not attack.

By the way, has an enuch ever given actual good advice in the Three Kingdom era, or is it just the ten enuchs and Huang Hao who were so traiterous?
User avatar
Antiochus
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2573
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 5:29 pm
Location: Sherbrooke

Unread postby Aeneas » Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:04 pm

The eunuchs were supposed to hang around with the women, anyway, I think. Why else would they have their balls removed?

And the rulers that listened to these ballless fools were destined to fall. Chinese culture with their eunuchs... Really dumb of them.
War: terrorism with a larger budget

Atheism: the belief of those who have none
User avatar
Aeneas
Student
 
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 5:57 pm
Location: Netherlands

Unread postby Antiochus » Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:16 pm

Maybe they though that it made them hard to corrupt, yet this has always been proven wrong. Sadly, we should refer to advisors that still have the ability to reproduce. It might make them care about the futur a bit more.
User avatar
Antiochus
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2573
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 5:29 pm
Location: Sherbrooke

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:51 pm

There were a few good ones and others that were quite capable if someone could control them (Cao Jie, Bian Lan, Jian Shou, not that Ling managed to do that), just not so easy to remember as the ones that utterly destroyed the kingdom.
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”

my tumbler

my officer analysis
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 16385
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Unread postby Mikhail » Wed May 09, 2007 2:41 am

I like Jiang Wei. He is one of my favourite officers.

In his situation, I compare it to the game 7 of the Stanley Cup playoffs...
His team (Shu) is already down a couple of goals with the loss of Jing, the three brothers and Zhuge Liang. Wei has just been sitting back, playing a cool defence.

So with that, comes Jiang Wei... The only "star" player left on the team. He had to try to "score" a couple of goals by doing the northern campaigns and winning some territory in the process. His efforts, though valiant, leaves his team short handed and Shu gets lucky that minimal damage is done... At least until Deng Ai and Zhong Hui decide to do some tic-tac-toe passing.

In this scenario, Jiang Wei is trying to beat the clock and help his team win. Now there can be arguments that there was no "clock" in the three kingdoms scenario and that they could wait until all the proper chances were given, but in my opinion, he thought that he simply had to make due with what he had.

In the end, he was outplayed by the better team. It happens. Sometimes Mario Lemieux is not able to make his team win because the other team just simply outclassed him.

Well, thats what I think of Jiang Wei. Its wierd, I think, comparing him to a hockey star. But thats the only way ive rationalized his actions :wink:
Soweneul Malhaebwa (Tell me your wish).
User avatar
Mikhail
Great Sage Equaling Heaven
 
Posts: 2623
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 11:15 am
Location: Toronto, Canada

Unread postby Sun Gongli » Wed May 09, 2007 3:56 am

I think a more accurate hockey analogy would be that his team got swept in four games, but they were all close, one-goal games. I don't think that Jiang Wei scored any victories at all, but he did greatly inconvenience Wei. Which just wasn't enough. Three smelly tanners could outdo Zhuge Liang, but Jiang Wei was two tanners short. He didn't have the skill to fulfill the role of Regent, and he didn't have the political know-how, either. That doesn't make him worthless. It makes him someone who probably should have been given a front line position and not command of the entire army.
"There are those who try to shape the world to their own whim,
and then there are those who allow the world to shape them.
It is in the balance that greatness is achieved."
User avatar
Sun Gongli
Poo Poo Pants
 
Posts: 4058
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:56 am
Location: Spies destroy everything I create!

Unread postby Antiochus » Wed May 09, 2007 4:01 am

But after Jiang Wan's and Fei Yi's death, was there anyone who could have been commander of Shu while producing better results?
If they can abolish fanaticism, let us pray for the advent of the sceptics.

Raymond Aron
The Opium of the Intellectuals
User avatar
Antiochus
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2573
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 5:29 pm
Location: Sherbrooke

PreviousNext

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 7 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved