Jiang Wei’s contribution to Shu’s downfall?

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Unread postby Shadowlink » Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:49 pm

Zhilong wrote:
Fei Yi entrusted him with a couple but limited his soldiers. Oddly, these invasions with limited resources were among Jiang Wei's most successful.


Small quibble. Actually at least one of them he lost 2 forts of men that he abandoned because he got outmanouvred by Wei.

-----

I'm also of the opinion that he was in it for personal fame and glory. Otherwise who would ignore the internal decay of his kingdom and accelerate it with his own exhausting campaigns? If he finds he cannot remove Huang Hao he should at least stay in the capital to counter him. Poor Dong Yun managed to do the thankless task without a single soldier in his command.

It was Wu fault that Shu fell


There is no point blaming others. It was Shu's own fault. Did Shu or Wu previously only manage to repel invasions by Wei because the other kingdom came to their aid?
Fine it was my fault I needed help with homework and I couldnt do it without my big brother wu but big brother wu has some resiponblity the day he became my big brother and he was busy doing something esle like killing his other big brothers while holding out a knife in front of me near yongan scaring me
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Unread postby Rastafarian » Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:31 pm

Jiang Wei is capable man , it's his young foolish master that make the shu collapsed..
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:04 pm

It had nothing to do with Jiang Wei's neglect of state affairs or his many failed and costly NC's? :?
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:48 pm

Huang Hao kinda wanted jiang wei to campaign so he can have the emperor to himself
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:46 pm

Zhilong wrote:I'm also of the opinion that he was in it for personal fame and glory. Otherwise who would ignore the internal decay of his kingdom and accelerate it with his own exhausting campaigns? If he finds he cannot remove Huang Hao he should at least stay in the capital to counter him. Poor Dong Yun managed to do the thankless task without a single soldier in his command.


Gotta love them generalized recommendations.
Maybe instead of these general plans you might say exactly how he was going to accomplish this?
How exactly is he going to 'counter' Huang Hao? People make these statements rather often without troubling themselves to go into the details.

"The eunuchs were destroying the Han! Some loyal person should've just killed them!"

These things are never quite as easy as it seems when making generalized statements. Given Jiang Wei's history and position, Huang Hao's history and position and the overall historical precedent in these matters, I submit that there really wasn't anything he could have done to 'counter' Huang Hao in any effective fashion short of seriously overstepping his bounds and probably ending up dead for it.
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Unread postby the glorious sun jian » Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:29 am

Well i think it was all liu chan,s fault :

I think jiang wei even prvent his kingdom from falling earler , his attackes stop wei from destroying shu by changing wei from marching to defending .
if he did not march his campains ,wei will enter shu easer than this .

he was doing well but tha big fat foolish man (liu chan ) kicked his kingdom
also do not forget liu bei and yi ling .
in yi ling shu lost alot of his power ,generals ,solders and simply lost its leader ,that was a bad move made by liu bei .

the second bad move by liu bei is making his son although knowing his foolish and unexperince a ruler to the kingdom .
also do not forget zhouge liang gampains which i think weakened shu more than jiang wei

strong shu :alot of gampains made by liang :weak shu

weak shu :alot of gampain by jian wei:very weak shu however he made it live longer
the feed of all of this are :
1- guan yu headstrong weakned shu 25%
2-liu bei short seen weakned shu 40%
3-making liu can a ruler weakned shu 20%
4-zhouge liang gampains weakned shu 15%
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:32 pm

I think jiang wei even prvent his kingdom from falling earler , his attackes stop wei from destroying shu by changing wei from marching to defending .
if he did not march his campains ,wei will enter shu easer than this .


care to explain that? Personally I think getting your generals killed, making the people hate you and exchuasting resources does bring about defeat a lot quicker

he was doing well but tha big fat foolish man (liu chan ) kicked his kingdom


I fail to see how 12 defeats and then losing Han Zhong is doing well

in yi ling shu lost alot of his power ,generals ,solders and simply lost its leader ,that was a bad move made by liu bei .


No it wasn't, Liu Bei had to fight Wu to regain Jing. I am willing to hear what he should have done instead?

the second bad move by liu bei is making his son although knowing his foolish and unexperince a ruler to the kingdom .


I'm not sure Liu Bei knew if Liu Shan was a fool but the alternative is what?

also do not forget zhouge liang gampains which i think weakened shu more than jiang wei


1) Zhuge Liang had 5 NC's, Jiang Wei had 7
2) Zhuge Liang made sure things were settled at home, Jiang Wei let Shu go down into the dumps
3) Zhuge Liang suffered few losses, Jiang Wei lost a lot more
4) The people never revolted against Zhuge Liang, the people did against Jiang Wei
5) Zhuge Liang gained two towns, Jiang Wei gained nothing but lost the kingdom

weak shu :alot of gampain by jian wei:very weak shu however he made it live longer


By making Shu so weak that Wei felt confident to invade?

Gotta love them generalized recommendations.
Maybe instead of these general plans you might say exactly how he was going to accomplish this?
How exactly is he going to 'counter' Huang Hao? People make these statements rather often without troubling themselves to go into the details.


Stay at home for awhile or find someone to act as the new Dong Yun. Act as an advisor, gain Liu Shan's trust, act as a counter point for Shu loyalts like Qiao Zhao to rally around. At least try, given Huang Hao's failure to slander people into execution, Jiang Wei only heard demotion to fear.
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Unread postby the glorious sun jian » Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:33 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:
I think jiang wei even prvent his kingdom from falling earler , his attackes stop wei from destroying shu by changing wei from marching to defending .
if he did not march his campains ,wei will enter shu easyer than this .


care to explain that? Personally I think getting your generals killed, making the people hate you and exchuasting resources does bring about defeat a lot quicker

you are talking as if jiang wei was the ruler ,anyway you are right in this however i mean even after zhouge liang 5attacks wei was still very strong for shu and could destroy it in one gampain ,so when jiang wei attacked he didnt give wei a chance to prepare a full assult ,despite the losing of the generals ,solders he still gave shu a good service .

he was doing well but tha big fat foolish man (liu chan ) kicked his kingdom

I fail to see how 12 defeats and then losing Han Zhong is doing well
yeah 12 defeats is very much and the losing of han zhong was the worst ,but you know that will not happen if liu chan gave jiang wei the support he needed .

in yi ling shu lost alot of his power ,generals ,solders and simply lost its leader ,that was a bad move made by liu bei .


No it wasn't, Liu Bei had to fight Wu to regain Jing. I am willing to hear what he should have done instead?

he did not want to just regain jing he wanted to take al of wu as a revenge sign to guan yu . okay go and regain what the enemy took from you that is right but wait for tha best chance and the best time ,liu bei did not do that and launch a big gampains without even 65% succes rather than his solders rage to avenge guan yu .
the second bad move by liu bei is making his son although knowing his foolish and unexperince a ruler to the kingdom .


I'm not sure Liu Bei knew if Liu Shan was a fool but the alternative is what?

why not making zhouge liang then, i know liang refused liu bei was able to force him .
also do not forget zhouge liang gampains which i think weakened shu more than jiang wei

1) Zhuge Liang had 5 NC's, Jiang Wei had 7
2) Zhuge Liang made sure things were settled at home, Jiang Wei let Shu go down into the dumps
3) Zhuge Liang suffered few losses, Jiang Wei lost a lot more
4) The people never revolted against Zhuge Liang, the people did against Jiang Wei
5) Zhuge Liang gained two towns, Jiang Wei gained nothing but lost the kingdom

1)the numbers are not that important , if we see the condition at the time of the attack zhouge liang hast to attack after a southern gampains and yet the kingdom was not healed from the suffering from yi ling altough liang had good plans still his hasting was a bad move .
2-wei would invaied any time leaving the battle field is bad too
3-zhouge liang is better than jiang wei in this so it is expected
4-in zhouge liang time there were alot of good generals ,there is no wau to revolt against him
5- at least jiang wei saved a weakned kingdom from falling more than 30 years
weak shu :alot of gampain by jian wei:very weak shu however he made it live longer

By making Shu so weak that Wei felt confident to invade?

shu was too weak since the begin why wei did not invaide ?? because jiang wei stated invaiding .

[quote][quote]Gotta love them generalized recommendations.
Maybe instead of these general plans you might say exactly how he was going to accomplish this?
How exactly is he going to 'counter' Huang Hao? People make these statements rather often without troubling themselves to go into the details.

Stay at home for awhile or find someone to act as the new Dong Yun. Act as an advisor, gain Liu Shan's trust, act as a counter point for Shu loyalts like Qiao Zhao to rally around. At least try, given Huang Hao's failure to slander people into execution, Jiang Wei only heard demotion to fear
you are right however staying at home while ther is no one good enough to lead the army is bad too .
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:15 pm

you are talking as if jiang wei was the ruler ,anyway you are right in this however i mean even after zhouge liang 5attacks wei was still very strong for shu and could destroy it in one gampain ,so when jiang wei attacked he didnt give wei a chance to prepare a full assult ,despite the losing of the generals ,solders he still gave shu a good service .


He let Shu die so he could be famous, hardly what I call good service. As for Wei, they invaded Hanzhong three times(once against Zhang Lu, two against Shu) before the final effort, Wei only managed to win against Zhang Lu due to a fluke and lost against Shu quite badly.

Wang Ping was able to crush a Wei army with his tiny army so as long as the defences are seen too, it shouldn't fall.

yeah 12 defeats is very much and the losing of han zhong was the worst ,but you know that will not happen if liu chan gave jiang wei the support he needed .


Since the only time Liu Shan showed a lack of support was in the loss of Hanzhong by sending reinforcments help, I would say the attack might get driven back, it might not.

he did not want to just regain jing he wanted to take al of wu as a revenge sign to guan yu


Guan Yu was just a convinent escuse, saying "I want Jing back" doesn't make such a good rallying cry. I doubt Liu Bei wanted all of Wu yet, he wasn't stupid

okay go and regain what the enemy took from you that is right but wait for tha best chance and the best time ,liu bei did not do that and launch a big gampains without even 65% succes rather than his solders rage to avenge guan yu .


65% sucess? I don't understand that? Liu Bei waited for two years before attacking, Lu Meng had just died and Wei seemed to have its eye on Wu so it was as good a time as any.

why not making zhouge liang then, i know liang refused liu bei was able to force him .


1) that offer was a show of trust, not a genuine offer
2) Liu Bei claims to be restoring the Han, how does he do that by having a Zhuge on the throne?
3) Wei and Wu would use it as an escuse to invade, every man of ambition in Shu would seek power for themselves

1)the numbers are not that important , if we see the condition at the time of the attack zhouge liang hast to attack after a southern gampains and yet the kingdom was not healed from the suffering from yi ling altough liang had good plans still his hasting was a bad move .


What makes you say it wasn't healed? The civil system was prospering, Shu was safe, the troops were ready and he needed to start attacking before the small pool of talent diminished further

2-wei would invaied any time leaving the battle field is bad too


So? Just leave Zhang Yi at Hanzhong with a proper army

4-in zhouge liang time there were alot of good generals ,there is no wau to revolt against him


Or the people loved him and hadn't been driven to exhuastion by many NC's year after year with the civil system in a mess

5- at least jiang wei saved a weakned kingdom from falling more than 30 years


Credit for that goes to Jiang Wan, Fei Yi and Dong Yun

shu was too weak since the begin why wei did not invaide ?? because jiang wei stated invaiding .


becuase till Jiang Wei made Shu so weak, sucess was not so sure for Wei. They also had the bigger threat of Wu to watch out for

you are right however staying at home while ther is no one good enough to lead the army is bad too .


Zhang Yi or Liao Hua could lead the army
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:17 am

sorry for the double post

Huang Hao was the Eunuch (maybe its my bad pronunciation) that totally kept Liu Chan in a state of dream thinking that the affairs of the country was all great when Wei was knocking at their footsteps. When Wei attacked, Jiang Wei send battle plans to Liu Chan suggesting appropriate defensive tactics, but was all withheld by Huang Hao.

As for Jiang Wei:
- Jiang Wei neglected stated affair to attack Wei, how so? I should note that the internal administrative authority did not rest with Jiang Wei until the final few years of Shu's history. Before that, it was Zhang Yun, Fei Wei, Lu Ai, Chen Zhi who held the top administrative post. If this is the whole Jiang Wei wasted resources argument then I would suggest another thread to debate. Safe to say I disagree, with respect. If anything, I would argue that Jiang Wei was never provided with sufficient support from central government.

- Jiang Wei tried to kill those who disagree with him - ok, where (on earth) did that came from? I have never heard anything of the sort? One of the key generals in Shu, Zhang Yuet, always disagreed with Jiang Wei but Jiang Wei relied on him nevertheless. Really would like to know where you are coming from on this one.

- Fame Hungry - I will definitely have to disagree there. History text said that he lived poorly and like many other Shu generals did not have a dime to spare. Any spare money goes back to the government, and it is also said that his wife and kids are often hungry. He lived for the state and had nothing but the best interest of the state at heart. Is this again one of those wasting resources/must be trying to make a name for himself theory?

If I can just add an overall comment, I found a few comments around this board is based on the actual outcome of the event and with benefit of hindsight. For example, if Zhuge Liang/Jiang Wei/Lu Xun etc etc did not manage to accomplish XYZ, then he probably shouldn't have tried it in the first place, and the fact that he keeps trying means that he must be a money-chasing, fame-hungry, good-at-nothing general (ok I'm exagerrating here but you get my point). I humbly submit to you that this is not the right way of providing historic critique, and a hero should never be judged by the level of his success. We should take into account their intention, their situation at the time, and the restriction/constraints they were under.

Not trying to start a fight, but just trying to give you my point of view. I have read quite a few literature (started when I was 8 yrs old and I'm now 28) on 3k and I can't say I often come across with a view that echoed yours. Not that it means that I'm right and you're not. I thank you for your opinion but at the moment I can't say I agree.

Anyone has a third opinion?


From what I understand, Liu Shan was the one that supressed the warning about invasion, did the mystic thing then sent reinforcements, later then he should have

I honestly have come across differing versions of my views many times so I am suprised but you are certainly not the only one to disagree. I do see your point about outcome and hindsight but it is a little harsh as a fair few people see beyond that, for example Zhuge Liang. Some people think he was poor as a commander, others think he was good. I'm on the good side and my own opnion of Jiang Wei is that he excelled in small unit command but did not have the ability or the tempremant for being commander in cheif.

1) not enough support? Other then Fei Yi and the defence of Hanzhong, I personally think he had too much support. He was commander of the whole army which gives him some degree of responbility but Chen Zhi's bio:
When Lu Yi died, Zhi also got to be Imperial Secretary and General of Zhen Jun. Chief General Jiang Wei, had a rank higher than Zhi, yet his absence from the court due to his campaigns made him rarely interfere with the court affairs


2) Zhang Yi's SGZ:
Jiang Wei realised the advice from Zhang Yi and started to not like him. Zhang Yi was then sent to lead the army from the front against his own wishes by Jiang Wei


I heard Xiahou Ba as well but don't have enough information about that to say either way.

3) You can live poorly and be fame hungry, in some ways those two combine. "Oh look how he lives, a great man of virtue". Look on page 2 of this thread, Xiahou Mao quotes the relavent passages
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