Why do you guys hate Liu Chan?

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Unread postby Shadowlink » Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:23 pm

from my other post.

"Also in 263, Shu Han was targeted by a major Cao Wei attack and sought assistance from Eastern Wu. Sun Xiu sent two separate forces, one attacking Shouchun (壽春, in modern Lu'an, Anhui) and one heading toward Hanzhong (漢中, in modern Hanzhong, Shaanxi) to try to alleviate pressures on Shu Han, but neither was at all successful"and Shu Han's capital Chengdu and its emperor Liu Shan surrendered later that year without having received major help from Eastern Wu."
Sun Xiu bio
It was Wu fault that Shu fell :cry:
Wu should have helped sooner if they were good allies.
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Unread postby James » Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:27 pm

Shadowlink wrote:It was Wu fault that Shu fell :cry:
Wu should have helped sooner if they were good allies.

I would no sooner blame the fall of Shu on Sun Hao than I would on Jiang Wei. Sure, if Sun Hao was more competent and had a stronger kingdom he might have been able to do something, but if Liu Shan wasn’t so grossly incompetent and lazy Shu would have been pretty near impossible to pacify at that point in history anyway.
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:07 pm

James wrote:
Shadowlink wrote:It was Wu fault that Shu fell :cry:
Wu should have helped sooner if they were good allies.

I would no sooner blame the fall of Shu on Sun Hao than I would on Jiang Wei. Sure, if Sun Hao was more competent and had a stronger kingdom he might have been able to do something, but if Liu Shan wasn’t so grossly incompetent and lazy Shu would have been pretty near impossible to pacify at that point in history anyway.
They were killing family and the Wu kingdom was divide so they werent so strong as a union as people might think
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Unread postby James » Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:08 pm

Shadowlink wrote:They were killing family and the Wu kingdom was divide so they werent so strong as a union as people might think

That was my first point – though I think it is known to many readers.
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Unread postby Zhilong » Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:37 am

Luo's bio seems to contradict this At the time when the General of the Right, Yan Yu, was in control of the troops at Badong, the Latter Sovereign instated Luo Xian as Yan Yu’s deputy. When Wei attacked Shu, Yan Yu was ordered to return to the west, leaving behind two thousand troops. Luo Xian was ordered to guard Yongan

I retract the point about Luo Xian previously holding military appointment as i seem to have mis-read his bio numerous times. My apologies regarding that point. However, the point that Huang Hao can demote a court official with at least reasonable rank due to his dislike of Lou Xian not co-operating with him still stands.

Awe can easily turned to being scared or bitterness at the constant blocking of more wives, Huang Hao would just have been making Liu Shan belive he could hate the now dead Dong Yun. Just a possible theroy


Excerpts from SGZ regarding the matter:
Dong Yun was just and equitable; he recommended the practicable and set aside the objectionable. He served loyally and beneficiently to his utmost capacity. The Sovereign of Han stood very much in awe of him. Huang Hao, was glib in tongue and nimble in mind; the Sovereign of Han loved him. Above, Dong Yun admonished the Sovereign with solemn countenance; below; he reprimanded Huang Hao repeatedly.

Chen Zhi had ingratiated himself with the sovereign of Han through his deft manner and smooth tongue... and stood in intimate contact with the palace eunuchs. Hence he was deeply loved by the Sovereign of Han, and his power was greater than that of Jiang Wei.

After Chen Zhi became a favourite of his, the Sovereign of Han resented the late Dong Yun more and more every day believing the latter had belittled him. This was because Chen Zhi flattered and pleased him while Huang Hao gradually insinuated his slanders and estrangements.

I think this tells us two things:
1) He prefers flattery to good advice. Thus Huang Hao & Chen Zhi are loved by him and are rewarded with great power while Qiao Zhou is demoted and a late loyal subject is resented.
2) He is easily manipulated like a child and has limited competency as a ruler.

No wonder Chen Shou comments that he was "an ignominious (ie. shameful/disgraceful) ruler when he was deluded by the eunuch".

1) He might not belive much in magic but desperate times call for measures someone might not normally take

2) See above

3) he consulted a witchdoctor, isn't that an expert on magic? As Luo Xian's bio indicates, milatry measures where taken and the reinforcments arrived . Personally, I would have done milatry preperations first and then the witchraft while making a mental note to fire Jiang Wei at later date


- Ok we both agree this was a highly unconventional measure.
- We also agree that even if we were to take such a course of action he could have taken military measures too for added caution. Again i don't think that really took much brain power to figure out.

- Given that he was replacing the nation's primary defence with witchcraft would it have hurt to consult more widely? Supposing the witchdoctor was an expert in witchcraft, his expertise in the welfare of a state cannot exceed the sum of the court of the Shu court officials. If the measure is so superb what is the harm of discussing it in court? If Liu Shan decides to reverse the national policy of using armed forces to resist invasion with witchcraft then he surely must take the fall for it.

- The only military measures taken mention in Luo Xian's bio is that once Wei actually attacked and it was clear witchcraft had failed was that Yan Yu's troops were recalled and Luo Xian was to defend Yongan. Other than that there was the late despatch of the reinformcents months late. Qiao Zhou's SGZ:

"The Han had not expected the Wei troops to arrive so suddenly and therefore had not arranged for the defense of their walled cities."

"If you wish to flee southwards, you ought to have planned for it early."


4) If those(well other then Qiao) at Cheng Du couldn't be bothered to provide any help normally, why would they bother now?


First you said desperate times call for desperate measures so presumably one must do all they can to ensure the survival of the state. If we assume no one helped him normally, would a competent ruler really not plea to his court officials for help at such a critical juncture? (This is not even mentioning the fact what the hell he was doing all this time if indeed his officials were so unhelpful). If he can take the desperate step of relying on witchcraft i think it would not be so unreasonable to at least attempt to get some help from his officials. Also he soon asked for help when Deng Ai was knocking on his doorsteps - this shows he is plenty capable of consulting them and many of them did provide their opinions.

6) and the back up plan should be what? Once Hanzhong falls, there is nothing Liu Shan can do to save the day

Here are some plausible options:
1) Arrange for defensive preparations and prepare for seige just in case.
2) Mobilise all troops in Shu to be able to be effectively deployed just in case.
3) Retain some capable generals and troops in the city just in case.
4) Ensure some decent communication with the frontiers so you actually know what the hell is going on in your state.
5) Perhaps he should have ruled a little more diligently prior to all this so they would not crumble so easily.
6) Make sure your confidant is not a eunnch who can give some good advice in times of need rather than advise hocus pocus and specifically not consulting those who would have had more hope in advising you.

Also that Zhong Hui penetrated deep into Hanzhong did not spell disaster. Zhong Hui was held in check eventually by Jiang Wei and the others and could not gain any more ground. Since supplies were running out he was considering retreat. So while Cao Rui was able to take care of the Wu front when Sima Yi was tied up with ZL, Liu Shan turned out to be the weakest link and unable to hold his front.

Very true, maybe his ministers could have stopped worshipping themselves and done that

And perhaps their ruler could have ruled from the top if he felt his subordinates were not exerting themselves?

two of them where dead and the other only got demoted.


3 instances of the same advice at different stages of his life. Did it occur to him that he should correct himself? What would it matter if the people were dead or alive? The advice has been so well recorded that we even have access to them today, if he had somehow forgotten why not go take a look at the records?

Oh what evil compared to Ling, Huang-insert most rulers here- who executed people for advice.


Yes just piss all over all the lives that were lost for his enterprise. If he really did not care to be a ruler perhaps he could have cancelled the campaigns early on and saved a hell of a lot of lives and suffering? If he is going to enjoy the trappings of being a ruler then he has to also be held accountable for the consquences of his neglectful rule. Just because there is worse than him does not mean he can be excused, that is poor logic.

a far easier idea would be for the likes of Jiang Wei and Zhuge Zhan to have done their jobs or later, for a lot more men to step forward and say "this and this is wrong"

You have failed to address the issue of Liu Shan actually being unwilling to correct himself despite more than one instance of advice on a single issue. It's like complaining the reason someone is underweight is because the chef has not filled said person's table with 10 more main courses when said person cannot even deal with a starter. Before complaining about the need for more advice you should complain that the ruler cannot even deal with that with which he has been given.

It is the rulers job to be making sure everyone is doing their job. The two most powerful ppl in the kingdom end up being Chen Zhi and later Huang Hao. When properly ruled Huang Hao did not dare go wrong ie, under Dong Yun. Under Fei Yi, Chen Zhi was a talented official. Look what happens to these ppl when they answer directly to Liu Shan.

scapegoat? Is this in refrence to the rule title changes?

Yes. Fei Yi had to bear criticism for it and could not reply and it later becomes obvious this is not his policy since Liu Shan does it more.
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:55 pm

I would like to state that Liu shan is a kind soul and that if someone was to tell other rulers and slander a certain person that person is
1.Executed
2.Executed along with whole clan
3.Exile and exile with whole aclan
4.Kill them while in exile
5.Torture

Liu Shan did none of that. He was as pure as pure can be not saying that is good but Sun Hao is the exactly opposite and was a bad a$$ to the bone. Silly officials cant they see they are spare from such cruelty? At least they still have a post. If Dong Yun did his job and find someone talented to advise Liu shan this would have all changed =(.

"he conferred the titled of Lord of Peace and Pleasure to Liu Shan." by sima yan ><

"In the first year of Beginning Prosperity (AD 223), Liu Shan sent envoys to the Kingdom of Wu to restore relations and make peace. The next two years Liu Shan adopted a policy of isolation, developed agriculture and authorized his ministers to arranged the management of all government affairs, national and local."

http://kongming.net/novel/kma/liushan.php
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:41 am

Zhilong, I know I have lost this debate, quite badly and I thhank you for the education

Still a couple of questions/statements

I think this tells us two things:
1) He prefers flattery to good advice. Thus Huang Hao & Chen Zhi are loved by him and are rewarded with great power while Qiao Zhou is demoted and a late loyal subject is resented.
2) He is easily manipulated like a child and has limited competency as a ruler.


I think like a chld is a little harsh, most people like to listen to slander and flattery. A ruler should rise above that, Liu Shan didn't

"The Han had not expected the Wei troops to arrive so suddenly and therefore had not arranged for the defense of their walled cities."


How quickly did Hanzhong fall? That quote seems like Shu just didn't expect Hanzhong to fall at all or so quickly

Also he soon asked for help when Deng Ai was knocking on his doorsteps - this shows he is plenty capable of consulting them and many of them did provide their opinions.


what did they say?

Here are some plausible options:


First four are good plans, the last two a bit late for :wink: However I do think that once Hanzhong has fallen, Shu is long term doomed

So while Cao Rui was able to take care of the Wu front when Sima Yi was tied up with ZL, Liu Shan turned out to be the weakest link and unable to hold his front.


Cao Rui was a suprisingly able leader of armies, I doubt his father could have been trusted to do the same

Yes just piss all over all the lives that were lost for his enterprise.


Not my intention at all, I'm sorry that you felt it did. Should Liu Shan have done better? Yes, should he have listend? To Qiao Zhao yes but at least Liu Shan didn't execute people for it. Ling, much smarter then Liu Shan, executed what seems like thousands over pretty much the same advice as each other

I feel sorry for the soldiers and the minor officers who had no real choice in their fate. For Qiao Zhao, Zhang Yi and others who tried to do their jobs, I feel sorry for them.

You have failed to address the issue of Liu Shan actually being unwilling to correct himself despite more than one instance of advice on a single issue. It's like complaining the reason someone is underweight is because the chef has not filled said person's table with 10 more main courses when said person cannot even deal with a starter. Before complaining about the need for more advice you should complain that the ruler cannot even deal with that with which he has been given.


You have to question a lot more talented rulers who did the same so what chance a, well educated and rich though he be, someone who seems to be an ordinary person in ability and personality would do the same?

It is the rulers job to be making sure everyone is doing their job. The two most powerful ppl in the kingdom end up being Chen Zhi and later Huang Hao. When properly ruled Huang Hao did not dare go wrong ie, under Dong Yun. Under Fei Yi, Chen Zhi was a talented official. Look what happens to these ppl when they answer directly to Liu Shan.


Power corrupts and Liu Shan's lack of investigation into affairs?
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