Why do you guys hate Liu Chan?

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Unread postby Celoneth » Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:00 am

Well Liu Shan wasn't as bad as Sun Hao (but that's not much of an endorsement). He just didn't govern at all, instead he acted the same way as the late Han emperors, squandering everything his father and all the talented Shu generals worked for. Plus it was wartime, and Liu Shan basically abdicated his responsibilities while his kingdom was still vulnerable. I don't think he would have been much better in peacetime, his court would become corrupt because of the influence of eunichs and Shu would fall fast.
& I think he did marry Zhang Fei's daughter but there's not much of a story there.
the road goes ever on and on back to the door where it began
User avatar
Celoneth
Tyro
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 3:02 am

Unread postby James » Sat Dec 23, 2006 5:18 am

I dislike Liu Shan because he turned a deaf ear not only to established trusted commanders and advisers of his father, but to the following generation he depended on for his kingdom’s stability. And to who? The likes of Huang Hao, of all people. A leader that cannot effectively use the talent surrounding him is useless. Liu Shan, who was actually a detriment to the talent around him, ranked somewhere below useless and just above the cruel gutter-feeding slime known so well by the likes of Sun Hao.
Kongming’s Archives – Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel, History and Games
“ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
  — Ben Franklin
User avatar
James
Sausaged Fish
Sausaged Fish
 
Posts: 17953
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:21 pm
Location: Happy Valley, UT

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Dec 23, 2006 8:52 am

I dislike Liu Shan because he turned a deaf ear not only to established trusted commanders and advisers of his father, but to the following generation he depended on for his kingdom’s stability


and who were these men that he ignored?
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 15683
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Unread postby James » Sat Dec 23, 2006 9:30 am

Dong Zhou wrote:and who were these men that he ignored?

Who is it he trusted? While he paid attention to officers when they entered his court, if they were slandered by the likes of Huang Hao, not only were they completely ignored, they also fell out of favor. Look what happened to his own brother, Liu Yong! This is a chief concern throughout much of his rule.
Kongming’s Archives – Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel, History and Games
“ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
  — Ben Franklin
User avatar
James
Sausaged Fish
Sausaged Fish
 
Posts: 17953
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:21 pm
Location: Happy Valley, UT

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Dec 23, 2006 10:49 am

Like Jiang Wei was slandered but Huang Hao was forced to apolgise? Liu Shan trusted Jiang Wei, Zhuge Zhan and his officers to do their jobs, they didn't, they raised as much objection as pretty pink pony.

Zhuge Liang did something similar with Peng Yang, if Liu Bei did the same thing as Shan then why should Shan be the only one to blame?
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 15683
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Unread postby Shadowlink » Sat Dec 23, 2006 1:52 pm

Well I think Liu shan deserve some cerdit over Sun hao. in the book yang hu said he was more corrupted than liu shan and the chance to attackwas now and send petitions to attack but failed. I mean before zhuge liang died he set liu shan with good people, if anything after jiang wan, dong yun, and fei yi died zhuge liang son zhuge zhan set him up with huang hao, remember he respe3cted zhuge liang alot and maybe he also respected his son and set zhuge zhan up with a princess. If Zhuge Liang can recommend good people lkie jiang wan and fei yi who he can trust and have fun with, yes he had fun with them why cant zhuge zhan?
User avatar
Shadowlink
Langzhong
 
Posts: 4883
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2002 5:57 pm

Unread postby Jiang Zhi » Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:06 pm

Xiahou Mao wrote:
Jiang Zhi wrote:Xing Cai is fictional and created by Koei


So you're saying that Zhang Fei didn't have a daughter and Liu Chan didn't marry her? Is Zhen Ji fictional then, too?

Her persona in Dynasty Warriors and the fact that she fought on the battlefield with a military fork is fictional. But she most certainly did still exist. She was Empress Zhang of Shu-Han.


Okay, should have reworded it, her personality was...

At least there's more written on Zhen Ji...e.g.) how she gave rice to the poor, etc.

James wrote:I dislike Liu Shan because he turned a deaf ear not only to established trusted commanders and advisers of his father, but to the following generation he depended on for his kingdom’s stability. And to who? The likes of Huang Hao, of all people. A leader that cannot effectively use the talent surrounding him is useless. Liu Shan, who was actually a detriment to the talent around him, ranked somewhere below useless and just above the cruel gutter-feeding slime known so well by the likes of Sun Hao.


In the famous words of Cao Cao, exactly my thought :P James basically summed it up
Jiang Zhi of Foshan, style Maodi
~*!越武帝!*~ - 我愛我的妻子孫尚香!
Nan Hai, Jiaozhou

Laconius Arts and Design My Rot3K fanfiction
User avatar
Jiang Zhi
Sun Shang Xiang's puppy-eyed slave
 
Posts: 3738
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2002 3:07 am
Location: Sun Shang Xiang's bedroom

Unread postby James » Sat Dec 23, 2006 7:00 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Like Jiang Wei was slandered but Huang Hao was forced to apolgise? Liu Shan trusted Jiang Wei, Zhuge Zhan and his officers to do their jobs, they didn't, they raised as much objection as pretty pink pony.

Being forced to apologize matters little when one does not change their ways.

Dong Zhou wrote:Zhuge Liang did something similar with Peng Yang, if Liu Bei did the same thing as Shan then why should Shan be the only one to blame?

He’s certainly not the only person behind Shu’s fall. But as a ruler, not only is he responsible for the concerns I previously mentioned, but he also failed to change problems in the government that should have been changed. It isn’t just a ruler’s responsibility to run an ethical and stable government, they should also purge corruption from it to protect against future problems.
Kongming’s Archives – Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel, History and Games
“ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
  — Ben Franklin
User avatar
James
Sausaged Fish
Sausaged Fish
 
Posts: 17953
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:21 pm
Location: Happy Valley, UT

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Dec 24, 2006 1:22 pm

James wrote:Being forced to apologize matters little when one does not change their ways.

He’s certainly not the only person behind Shu’s fall. But as a ruler, not only is he responsible for the concerns I previously mentioned, but he also failed to change problems in the government that should have been changed. It isn’t just a ruler’s responsibility to run an ethical and stable government, they should also purge corruption from it to protect against future problems.


No but Huang Hao wouldn't have enjoyed it and it is an example that what Huang Hao said didn't always mean Liu Shan agreed

Again, who told him things had gone wrong? Yes Liu Shan should have taken control and changed things but it helps if the ruler is made aware of the problems
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 15683
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Unread postby James » Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:02 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:No but Huang Hao wouldn't have enjoyed it and it is an example that what Huang Hao said didn't always mean Liu Shan agreed

I don’t see how that matters when the power of Huang Hao’s influence is already well established and documented.

Dong Zhou wrote:Again, who told him things had gone wrong? Yes Liu Shan should have taken control and changed things but it helps if the ruler is made aware of the problems

People did petition Liu Shan to make changes, and others attempted to make him aware of these problems. His own brother again serves as an example. There is no excusing Liu Shan’s ability to see through this corruption. It is further worth nothing that those who opposed Huang Hao, or spoke out against him, with the exception of only a few particularly powerful people (who were ignored in the end), wound up losing their authority or position. His brother couldn’t even get an audience after Huang Hao slandered him.
Kongming’s Archives – Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel, History and Games
“ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
  — Ben Franklin
User avatar
James
Sausaged Fish
Sausaged Fish
 
Posts: 17953
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:21 pm
Location: Happy Valley, UT

PreviousNext

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved