Why do you guys hate Liu Chan?

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Why do you guys hate Liu Chan?

Unread postby Shadowlink » Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:22 pm

I actually been finding out more about him and he doesnt seem like a bad person. He cant live up to his father dream, he doesnt know what to do, he feels depress he has a kingdom to run and his father figure zhuge liang died, he tuirns to jiang wan, fei yi as their father figure and were actually good friends and listen to them alot. he also listen to dong yun even though dong yun limited his wife. After they all died it was dong yun fault for letting huang hao there. In fact when jiang wan and them were alive huang hao never got a chance with liu shan. Liu shan needed someone support while jiang wei was campaigning. Xing Cai wasnt there for him, other girls were and SSX was never there. I think Liu Shan deserve more credit he surrender for the good of the people. Although he is unfit for a emperor he shouldnt be call a loser or a chinese saying a never standing up liu ah dou refering to someone who is very stupid. Liu shan is lose and probably scared with people reassuming him he trusts them. In fact he burial wei yan with full honors when wei yan died and found out by himsself it without officers telling him that wei yan was loyal.
Shouldnt he deserve more credit? :? about 3 months ago I hated him also.
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Unread postby JamesD » Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:11 pm

Ok for one when he started listening to Huang Hao he did bad decisons. He ruined a kingdom that wasn't doing to bad. Xing Cai is fictional. He had to surrender, his kingdom would have n=been complelty destroiyed.
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Unread postby Jiang Zhi » Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:26 pm

And another thing :P if you go by the novel, Sun Shang Xiang committed suicide when Liu Bei died...(what a disgusting ending to her life)

If you go by history, Sun Shang Xiang's marriage with Liu Bei was annulled when the Wu/Shu alliance was dissolved.

He made the same mistake as Emperor Huan, Emperor Ling and the other later Han emperors did.....listen to the castrated little men running around his palace - the eunuchs - and spent loads of time having fun in his harem.
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:43 pm

No I mean zhang xing cai the person who is related to xiahou yuan and zhang fei daugther who later married liu shan. in fact Lady wu/liu bei wife supported him and ask zhuge liang for help in the novel. Huang hao offered liu shan hope, at least liu shan wasnt arrogrant like sun hao with people praising sun hao that he was going to take wei. I mean alot of people could have supported liu shan. Liu shan was a honest person as seen when he surrender and also tried his hardest in some cases. When zhuge liang died he was sad and never appointed another prime minister. Nobody can become prime minister in place of zhuge liang.
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Unread postby Jiang Zhi » Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:46 pm

Xing Cai is fictional and created by Koei
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:54 pm

he also listen to dong yun even though dong yun limited his wife. After they all died it was dong yun fault for letting huang hao there. In fact when jiang wan and them were alive huang hao never got a chance with liu shan.


Huang Hao was not in service during Jiang Wan's time, it was Dong Yun who restrained Huang Hao's influence. It was when Dong Yun died that Huang Hao grew in power thanks to the likes of Chen Zi and Zhuge Zhan

I like Liu Shan, he was a ruler who was let down by his officals after Dong Yun but he was lazy and wasn't strong enough to sack the likes of Jiang Wei
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Unread postby Xiahou Mao » Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:02 am

Jiang Zhi wrote:Xing Cai is fictional and created by Koei


So you're saying that Zhang Fei didn't have a daughter and Liu Chan didn't marry her? Is Zhen Ji fictional then, too?

Her persona in Dynasty Warriors and the fact that she fought on the battlefield with a military fork is fictional. But she most certainly did still exist. She was Empress Zhang of Shu-Han.
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Unread postby Tan_Binrui » Fri Dec 22, 2006 8:41 am

Personally, I don't hate Liu Chan. I don't like him, but I don't hate him. He didn't choose to be an Emperor, and he had no talent to lead, well, anything. He allowed his father's kingdom to wilt away like a dying flower, but that's better than actively weakening the economy with useless projects (like Cao Rui's building of numerous palaces). He allowed those without talent to rise through the ranks, but at least he didn't execute the ones who tried to stand up to them (ala Sun Hao).

He was bad, because of his neglect. However, I couldn't hate him because of this.
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Unread postby Sun Gongli » Sat Dec 23, 2006 12:31 am

For all we know, Liu Chan could have been an excellent emperor during times of peace. He was a pretty bad emperor during wartime, but he was far from the worst ruler. Dong Zhuo was capable but tyrannical; Sun Hao was incapable AND tyrannical.
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Unread postby CaTigeReptile » Sat Dec 23, 2006 1:40 am

Tan: On Cao Rui's defense, he was a far more talented ruler than Liu Chan. His problem was his focus. During peacetime, Cao Rui would have been thought of as a wonderful, cultured ruler. Unfortunately, he was a ruler during war, and it was simply "wrong place, wrong time" that made him (seem) incompetent.

Okay, now to add a little Liu Chan to make my post non-tangential.

Liu Chan only seemed to honor the dying generals that were with Liu Bei when Shu was in its (very short-lived) prime. As opposed to being a ruler, it appears to me that he was just. . .hanging on for the ride.

(And. .I speak history, as always!)
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