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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:53 am
by Dong Zhou
Here’s another possible perspective. Reading some of Liu Feng’s Sanguozhi biography up there, maybe he was not in a position to rank Meng Da lowly? It would be like trying to rank Ma Chao lowly. It could have been a shrewd political move. Also, by the wording above it would seem more as if Liu Bei doubted Meng Da’s capabilities rather than his loyalty—what do you think?


It could be either but from what I remember, Meng Da's only real use was writing and betryal so I'll gowith yours.

Re: Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:16 am
by Ah-Man
Did Feng fight against Cao Zhang and failed? I sorta remember reading that Cao Cao paraised his "golden bearded boy" after he schooled Feng. I cant' remember if this was history or something from the novel.

BTW, is there a translated SGZ for Feng?

Re: Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:13 am
by Shen Ai
Cao Cao once said that he wished that Cao Zhang was there to teach Liu Feng some manners and how to really fight. They didn't actually fight, but given Zhang's prowess, Feng wouldn't have stood a chance.

Re: Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:38 am
by Dong Zhou
Ah-Man wrote:Did Feng fight against Cao Zhang and failed? I sorta remember reading that Cao Cao paraised his "golden bearded boy" after he schooled Feng. I cant' remember if this was history or something from the novel.

BTW, is there a translated SGZ for Feng?


Novel. Along with Liu Feng's constant fear of Xu Huang which I found amusing.

There was a partly translated sgz of Liu Feng.

Re: Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:53 pm
by Ah-Man
Dong Zhou wrote:
Ah-Man wrote:Did Feng fight against Cao Zhang and failed? I sorta remember reading that Cao Cao paraised his "golden bearded boy" after he schooled Feng. I cant' remember if this was history or something from the novel.

BTW, is there a translated SGZ for Feng?


Novel. Along with Liu Feng's constant fear of Xu Huang which I found amusing.

There was a partly translated sgz of Liu Feng.


I sorta recall that Feng was kinda of a douche and let Guan die because Feng held a grudge against Guan bec he supported Liu Shan as being heir. Can't remember if that was from the novel or some Shuist's folklore.

Re: Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:57 pm
by epaminondas146871
As Cao Zhang and his army neared Ye Gorge, he spotted his father with a battered force fleeing towards him. Zhang hastened to his father’s side and Cao Cao, cheered by his son’s arrival, said, “With my yellowbeared boy here (1), Liu Bei will be beaten!”
Father and son then combined forces and established camps in Ye Gorge. Liu Bei’s commanders Liu Feng and Meng Da arrived shortly afterwards, and Cao Zhang rode out to meet them. Zhang first fought with Feng, but the Shu general was bested in only a few clashes. Meng Da then raced out, but just as their battle began, Zhang noted a disturbance in his ranks. The young general raced back and saw enemy commanders Ma Chao and Wu Lan attacking his men from a different front. Charging into the melee, Cao Zhang met up with Wu Lan and killed him with a single halberd thrust. All three armies—Cao Zhang’s, Ma Chao’s, and Meng Da’s—then fought for domination of the field, but no clear victor was recognised and the armies later returned to camp. Cao Cao ordered a retreat back to the capital, Xuchang, shortly after.


So... that basically sums it up about Cao Zhang and Liu Feng.

Re: Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:47 pm
by Dong Zhou
Ah-Man wrote:
I sorta recall that Feng was kinda of a douche and let Guan die because Feng held a grudge against Guan bec he supported Liu Shan as being heir. Can't remember if that was from the novel or some Shuist's folklore.


Novel I think

Re: Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:36 am
by Nazne
Ah-Man wrote:I sorta recall that Feng was kinda of a douche and let Guan die because Feng held a grudge against Guan bec he supported Liu Shan as being heir. Can't remember if that was from the novel or some Shuist's folklore.


It was in the Sanguozhi Pinghua, basically the precursor to RoTK - a bunch of tales in roughly chronological order passed down in folklore. Apparently Liu Bei asked Zhuge Liang who should be heir, but Zhuge Liang inexplicably feigned sickness and got Liu Bei to ask Guan Yu instead, and Guan Yu supported Liu Shan, which is why Liu Feng held a grudge against him. Absent is any explanation of why Zhuge Liang would do such a thing (unless to stave off Liu Feng's grudge, in which case he's kind of a douche), so it's likely just a device folklore uses to attempt to explain Liu Feng's betrayal/cast him in a worse light.

Re: Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:01 pm
by Striga
In that case, does that mean LGZ portrayed him better by making it seem like Meng Da tricked him into doing so, or was the folklore also Meng Da tricking him?

Re: Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:13 pm
by Nazne
I believe, in folklore, Liu Feng outright knew about and hated Guan Yu for the heir thing. In the novel, Luo Guanzhong seems to have made him *slightly* less culpable by having Meng Da trick him about it.