Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

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Re: Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

Unread postby DragonAtma » Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:13 am

Older sons have priority over younger sons in succession.
Biological sons have priority over adopted sons in succession.

So if Liu Feng and Liu Shan were both alive when Liu Bei died, things would be muddled -- both sons would have a valid reason for being the heir, and Shu absolutely did not need a Yuan Tan/Yuan Shang split. That's also one of the reasons there was no talk of Liu Feng being executed or anything for most of Liu Shan's life -- if (say) Liu Bei had a heart attack in 210 and died, I find it very unlikely that a 3-year-old Liu Shan would be the heir.
Unless I specifically say otherwise, assume I am talking about historical Three Kingdoms, and not the novel.

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Re: Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

Unread postby PeanutButterToast » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:33 pm

DragonAtma wrote:Older sons have priority over younger sons in succession.
Biological sons have priority over adopted sons in succession.
.


Having just finished the TV show, this makes me sort of laugh due to my image of Liu Shan. Liu Bei, Guan Yu and Zhuge Liang (in all of their wisdom) disfavored the competent, strong willed general in favor of an idiotic, weak-willed crybaby who plays with crickets.

I mean, I read all the posts and I get the point but somehow the logic still evades me. Ah well. Poor Liu Feng.
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Re: Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:16 pm

In fairness, I don't think Liu Shan ever did something as stupid as Liu Feng's handling of events after Guan Yu's fall :wink:

Liu Feng was proven but that proof showed appalling poor political judgement and handling of people to counteract his miliatry expirence and energy, Liu Shan was an unknown and of Liu Bei's direct blood, he would turn out to be a mediocre and lazy if kind emperor but even with knowledge of how Shan would turn out, he was probably the better choice then Feng.
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Re: Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:10 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:In fairness, I don't think Liu Shan ever did something as stupid as Liu Feng's handling of events after Guan Yu's fall :wink:

Liu Feng was proven but that proof showed appalling poor political judgement and handling of people to counteract his miliatry expirence and energy, Liu Shan was an unknown and of Liu Bei's direct blood, he would turn out to be a mediocre and lazy if kind emperor but even with knowledge of how Shan would turn out, he was probably the better choice then Feng.


It seems to me that realistically Liu Feng was never an option to be the Emperor, however he could have been a political rival for Zhuge Liang. Look at both Wu and Wei, they relied heavily on relations to the ruling house to prop up their dynasties governments.
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Re: Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

Unread postby DragonAtma » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:02 pm

Wu did; Wei, not so much. Remember, one of the reasons SIma Yi took over is that (after Cao Shuang's death) there were no powerful Cao family members to stop him.
Unless I specifically say otherwise, assume I am talking about historical Three Kingdoms, and not the novel.

In memory of my beloved cats, Anastasia (9/30/06-9/18/17, illness) and Josephine (1/19/06-9/23/17, cancer).
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Re: Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:58 am

Wei had a deliberate policy to keep family members powerless.

Liu Feng had enough claim to be a rallying point and plotting point for dissidents, to be an adult, militarily experienced alternative to Shan's regime
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Re: Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:00 am

Cao Shuang was a family relation though right and he was given the regency?
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Re: Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

Unread postby DragonAtma » Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:15 pm

Not really: Cao Zhen was essentially adopted by Cao Cao after his father died raising soldiers for Cao Cao's father; by Cao Cao's death, Cao Zhen was important enough (and, since adopted, not a threat for the throne), so he kept his military position. Cao Shuang only got his position by being Cao Zhen's son, which really was a very bad idea.
Unless I specifically say otherwise, assume I am talking about historical Three Kingdoms, and not the novel.

In memory of my beloved cats, Anastasia (9/30/06-9/18/17, illness) and Josephine (1/19/06-9/23/17, cancer).
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Re: Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:06 pm

To a certain extent he was in a similar position to Liu Feng then. Both in the family by adoption. I admit Liu Feng gaining support to be Emperor was probably more realistic than Cao Zhen/Shuang. However even if he wasn't an Emperor I still think its creditable that Zhuge Liang considered him a genuine rival for the regency!
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Re: Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:59 pm

Well, I would say less chance of a Regent and more chance for ambitious leaders to want to replace Liu Shan with Feng. More of a Yuan Shang/Tan situation then competing with Zhuge Liang.
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