Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

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Re: Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:45 am

Liu Feng could be whatever the dissidents wanted him to be really, he would be a lightening rod for dissidents and Professor Rafe puts "Zhuge Liang suggested that when Liu Shan came to the throne it would be difficult for him to control Liu Feng, as former heir to his father"
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Re: Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

Unread postby DragonAtma » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:26 am

The main difference between Liu Feng and Cao Zhen is that Cao Zhen had competent people ahead of him (Cao Pi, Cao Zhang, etc.), while Liu Feng had.... Liu Shan. Okay, there's Liu Yong and Liu Li as well, but....
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Re: Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

Unread postby waywardauthor » Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:45 pm

DragonAtma wrote:The main difference between Liu Feng and Cao Zhen is that Cao Zhen had competent people ahead of him (Cao Pi, Cao Zhang, etc.), while Liu Feng had.... Liu Shan. Okay, there's Liu Yong and Liu Li as well, but....

I am really interested about the family of Liu Bei, given that we are starved for information on them. Did Liu Bei follow the old Han method of weakening and disenfranchising collateral branches of the Han family, so that Yong and Li never even had the opportunity to show basic erudition? Or is there a problem with our sources that more or less removes them? There are dozens of exceedingly important people who are not quite matching up with the events that are recorded, so they end up largely erased. Wei, Wu, and Shu all had bureaucracies and men in the ranks, but often times some of the people who occupied the most important positions in the empire, are given just a line or two, with most of the bureaucracies incomplete in our minds because the historians didn't fill in the blanks for us. They wouldn't have found such things important, leaving us vexed about the huge gaps in our knowledge.

It sort of makes me wonder if Yong and Li were devoid of competence, if they were never given the opportunity to shine, or that they shone through, but not in a way that would warrant note either as a moralistic tale or a step in major events?
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Re: Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:09 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Liu Feng could be whatever the dissidents wanted him to be really, he would be a lightening rod for dissidents and Professor Rafe puts "Zhuge Liang suggested that when Liu Shan came to the throne it would be difficult for him to control Liu Feng, as former heir to his father"


Yeah I agree with this - whatever role he wanted it would be difficult to deny him, from general through to Emperor and he would have been awkward to control for anyone in any position of authority over him. Reminds me of Sun Gao with Sun Quan. He was a competent general under Sun Ce, briefly considered couped Sun Quan so was politically banished to remove him from being a threat. You kind of imagine that if Sun Quan had forgiven him he would have been a nightmare for anyone other than Quan to control.
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