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Zhuge Liang’s greatest fault?

Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 9:37 am
by lord darwin of sibarani
hi,what`s up do you know about Zhuge liang fault ? i only know one .It is about Ma su .In Liu bei deathbed liu bei advice zhuge liang not give ma su a big responbilities but zhuge liang ignores about this at battle of jie ting ( or whatever ) he given a big responbilities to keep wei advance and he failed, caused a huge defeat .he eventually execute Ma su.Anyone find another ZL fault

Mod edit (James): title clarification.

Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:00 am
by Dong Zhou
His failure to take Cheng Cang? His slandering of Peng Yang? His awful advice regarding attack Liu Zong and don't attack Wu?

Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:11 am
by Jordan
I think that after Jieting Zhuge Liang had some sort of major awakening. He suddenly became aware that he needed to shape up and start kicking ass, or perhaps he now felt a greater sense of duty? REgardless, after Jieting Zhuge Liang starts looking a lot better in my mind.

Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 9:19 pm
by Zhilong
His use of Ma Su is not wrong because Liu Bei said do not give him big responsibilities. Liu Bei is not always right and made many mistakes in his life. It was wrong of ZL to do so because it was a rather big appointment. ZL's judgement over personnel was often right but this time it was not and he had himself demoted.

Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:56 am
by Shi Tong
Zhuge Liang had many faults, like many other people- his main fault is that he didn't manage to invade Wei and destroy it.

I know this is stating the obvious, but that was his remit and he failed, not only that but I think that the invasion of Wei from Shu was possible and if he'd been a little "better" than he was he could have got his job done.

Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:52 pm
by Shadowlink
Dong Zhou wrote:His failure to take Cheng Cang? His slandering of Peng Yang? His awful advice regarding attack Liu Zong and don't attack Wu?
who was pang yeng? when did he say attack liu zong?

Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:26 pm
by Dong Zhou
Peng Yang was an officer of Shu who while arrogant, was said to be brilliant which meant he was treated well by Pang Tong and Fa Zheng but Zhuge Liang told Liu Bei that Peng Yang was a threat and had ambitions.

Liu Bei's SGZ

Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:21 pm
by jiang cheng
His greatest mistake is to allow Guan Yu to be in Jing Zhou he should have put someone more patient at there like Zilong

Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:06 pm
by Elitemsh
jiang cheng wrote:His greatest mistake is to allow Guan Yu to be in Jing Zhou he should have put someone more patient at there like Zilong


Placing Guan Yu in Jing was Liu Bei's decision not Kongming's. I would have to agree with some of the others that placing Ma Su in charge at Jieting was Zhuge Liang's most significant error. He had just captured three commanderies and the momentum was with him. A shame indeed, perhaps Zhuge Liang was not the best judge of character.

Shi Tong wrote:Zhuge Liang had many faults, like many other people- his main fault is that he didn't manage to invade Wei and destroy it.

I know this is stating the obvious, but that was his remit and he failed, not only that but I think that the invasion of Wei from Shu was possible and if he'd been a little "better" than he was he could have got his job done.


I do not agree with this at all. In my view, Zhuge Liang did very well considering the circumstances. Firstly, consider the fact that Zhuge Liang, upon Liu Bei's death, was personally placed in charge of all affairs (major or minor). To personally lead expeditions against a far superior force while also dealing with the infinite number of other issues was no doubt an extreme responsibilty and too much stress to handle for one man (even one as talented as Kongming). It is not like he could focus solely on the war against Wei, he had many other domestic and political issues to be concerned with. This should be considered when evaluating Zhuge Liang. Secondly, after Jing was taken and Liu Bei was defeated by Wu, Shu's already limited resources had been drained dramatically. Putting Jie Ting aside, Zhuge Liang was constantly forced to retreat due to a lack of supplies, had he had more resources he would have done much better. Also in his SGZ bio, Chen Shou states that Zhuge Liang had very few capable officers to call upon. All these factors must be considered when analysing Lord Zhuge Liang.

Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:13 pm
by James
Shi Tong wrote:Zhuge Liang had many faults, like many other people- his main fault is that he didn't manage to invade Wei and destroy it.

I know this is stating the obvious, but that was his remit and he failed, not only that but I think that the invasion of Wei from Shu was possible and if he'd been a little "better" than he was he could have got his job done.

He certainly did his best, and tha was what counted. Unfortunately he had to deal with the likes of Sima Yi in order to accomplish anything. He probably understood that the fate of the Three Kingdoms would likely come down to future generations and, as such, understood the implications of this for Shu. Unfortunately, he was up definitely outgunned in attacking Wei, and he was also dealing with a very strong enemy nation. Perhaps if Sima Yi wasn't there to oppose him he might have gotten the job done.

But given the fact that it was so hard to launch these campaigns—supplies, resources, troop counts, the attacker’s disadvantage, incompetent leadership at home, an overburden of responsibilities—I would not say he did poorly.

I'll agree that his greatest fault was probably trusting Ma Su.
I wonder what manner of person Ma Su was on other occasions?