Is Liu Bei really a man of virtue?

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Is Liu Bei really a man of virtue?

Unread postby JamesD » Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:39 pm

What do you think?
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Unread postby Kittn » Sat Oct 21, 2006 1:27 am

I used to like Liu Bei a lot. A whole lot, even. But that was before I found out he was a real person. ^^; I clung to my ideal of him for a long time, and now that I'm researching stuff, it seems there's a lot of things attacking that idea.

So right now, I honestly don't know what to think of the man!
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Unread postby DAv » Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:42 pm

He did seem to be a moral man. But constantly had to go back on them to survive. If he hadn't been so caught up with his morals early on, he may have challenged Cao Cao much sooner.
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Unread postby JamesD » Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:45 pm

DAv wrote:He did seem to be a moral man. But constantly had to go back on them to survive. If he hadn't been so caught up with his morals early on, he may have challenged Cao Cao much sooner.


To my knowledge in history, Liu bei is worse in history than the novel gives him credit for. He was a known betrayer.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:41 pm

JamesD wrote:
DAv wrote:He did seem to be a moral man. But constantly had to go back on them to survive. If he hadn't been so caught up with his morals early on, he may have challenged Cao Cao much sooner.


To my knowledge in history, Liu bei is worse in history than the novel gives him credit for. He was a known betrayer.


He wasn't really considered to be a "known betrayer" as a matter of fact during most of his career he was known to be a very honorable man. It is seen when Guo Jia and Xun Yu suggest to Cao Cao that he kill Liu Bei when Lu Bu drove Liu Bei to Cao Cao. Cao Cao said that he wouldn't kill Liu Bei because he was a known hero and people would lose respect for Cao Cao if he killed a man like Liu Bei.
When Lu Su was telling Sun QUan to ally with Liu Bei against Co Cao he was basing this off Liu Bei's reputation.
When Fa Zheng and Zhang Song were convincing Liu Zhang to bring Liu Bei in to fight Zhang Lu for him it was because of his grand reputation.
Liu Bei did not have a negative reputation to anyone except his enemies.
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Unread postby cao cao#1 » Sat Oct 21, 2006 10:20 pm

Liu Bei did not have a negative reputation to anyone except his enemies.


Ofcourse you would say that I mean come on your name is liubeiwasgreat :wink: :lol: .

I think he was somewhere in between a honorable man but did not hesitate to sway away from his believes when either in danger or if a oppurtunity arrises.Like the whole Lu Bu thing Liu bei pleading to cao cao to kill him and the taking JinZhou ( I think) andnot handing it back .
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:49 am

cao cao#1 wrote:
Liu Bei did not have a negative reputation to anyone except his enemies.


Ofcourse you would say that I mean come on your name is liubeiwasgreat :wink: :lol: .

I think he was somewhere in between a honorable man but did not hesitate to sway away from his believes when either in danger or if a oppurtunity arrises.Like the whole Lu Bu thing Liu bei pleading to cao cao to kill him and the taking JinZhou ( I think) andnot handing it back .


Well he didn't plead with Cao Cao to kill Lu Bu he just gave his advice. Plus Liu Bei had pleanty reason to want Lu Bu dead considering how Lu Bu betrayed him.

Liu Bei took southern Jing with his own armies, Jiang Ling was given to him by Wu. He offered to give Jing to Wu once he took Liangzhou which would be th repalcement for Jing. It was shortly after that in which Wu attacked.

I admit i have some bias toward Liu Bei but i do accept that he did some underhanded things to survive and get stronger. He didn't handle the situation with Sun Quan in the correct way, nor was it honorable to att ack Liu Zhang. (dishonorable but vital to survival since if Cao Cao took it then there would be no way to stop Cao Cao) Liu Bei was a warlord who did what needed to be done to protect his power and holdings. That was the way things needed to be done. Being kind and virtuous tended to end one's career quite quickly during that time.
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Unread postby Sun Gongli » Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:28 am

Liu Bei was kind and virtuous enough for me. I don't like him as much as I like the Sun family, quite honestly, but I wouldn't say Liu Bei was a bad person by any stretch of the imagination.

Guan Yu, on the other hand... :twisted:
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Oct 22, 2006 8:48 am

He wasn't really considered to be a "known betrayer" as a matter of fact during most of his career he was known to be a very honorable man. It is seen when Guo Jia and Xun Yu suggest to Cao Cao that he kill Liu Bei when Lu Bu drove Liu Bei to Cao Cao. Cao Cao said that he wouldn't kill Liu Bei because he was a known hero and people would lose respect for Cao Cao if he killed a man like Liu Bei.
When Lu Su was telling Sun QUan to ally with Liu Bei against Co Cao he was basing this off Liu Bei's reputation.
When Fa Zheng and Zhang Song were convincing Liu Zhang to bring Liu Bei in to fight Zhang Lu for him it was because of his grand reputation.
Liu Bei did not have a negative reputation to anyone except his enemies.


Liu Bei during his own time seems to have divided opnion over his virtue after Tao Qian died. You mentioned the good side of his repuation but there was also:
Lu Bu's advisors persuaded him not to trust Liu Bei
The Cao Cao thing you mentioned
Liu Biao and his court didn't trust him much
Zhou Yu tried to control Liu Bei over fears of betryal.
Some of Liu Zhang's advisors wanred there lord about not letting Liu Bei in
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
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