Pondering Liu Bei’s Education

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Unread postby Ma Meng Han » Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:49 pm

Quick question, was Liu Bei illiterate? I don't think he got much of an education being a shoe seller. :?
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Unread postby Gabriel » Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:52 pm

No, he's not. He studied under Lu Zhi and possibly others.
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Unread postby Changes » Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:14 pm

Liu Bei does seem pretty simple through out the book in his actions, remeber his stratedgy at Yi Ling?

Apart from this he seems competant enough to lead an army quite effectively.

Liu Bei was a man of average intelligence really compared with Cao Cao and Sun Quan, its charisma and his lineage that really got him through.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:22 pm

Changes wrote:Liu Bei does seem pretty simple through out the book in his actions, remeber his stratedgy at Yi Ling?

Apart from this he seems competant enough to lead an army quite effectively.

Liu Bei was a man of average intelligence really compared with Cao Cao and Sun Quan, its charisma and his lineage that really got him through.


I would hardly say average intelligence. He got a great education that was mainly reserved for nobles.
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Unread postby Changes » Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:24 pm

LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:
Changes wrote:Liu Bei does seem pretty simple through out the book in his actions, remeber his stratedgy at Yi Ling?

Apart from this he seems competant enough to lead an army quite effectively.

Liu Bei was a man of average intelligence really compared with Cao Cao and Sun Quan, its charisma and his lineage that really got him through.


I would hardly say average intelligence. He got a great education that was mainly reserved for nobles.
Where did he show it?

There are few examples that I can think of genuine cleaverness, the only example that comes to mind is him developing an intrest in horticulture to persuade Cao Cao he had no ambition, but Cao Cao did not buy this.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:33 am

Changes wrote:
LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:
Changes wrote:Liu Bei does seem pretty simple through out the book in his actions, remeber his stratedgy at Yi Ling?

Apart from this he seems competant enough to lead an army quite effectively.

Liu Bei was a man of average intelligence really compared with Cao Cao and Sun Quan, its charisma and his lineage that really got him through.


I would hardly say average intelligence. He got a great education that was mainly reserved for nobles.
Where did he show it?

There are few examples that I can think of genuine cleaverness, the only example that comes to mind is him developing an intrest in horticulture to persuade Cao Cao he had no ambition, but Cao Cao did not buy this.


Well, his ability to run the Xu provience after Tao Qian left it to him, his running of the southern Jing provience, and then his running of the Yi provience shows that he was an educated man. Militarily he shows his intelligence when he ambushed and burnt out Xiahou Dun's forces at Bo Wang. For general knowledge look at his bio, he references ancient parallels while talking to Pang Tong. Pang Tongs SGZ "The First Sovereign said to Pang Tong, "Today's celebration is a joyous one". Pang Tong admonished, "To attack someone's state and say you are happy is not from a righteous army". The First Sovereign was drunk at the time and was angry, "When Wu Wang was attacking Zhou 5, he was singing before and dancing afterwards, so was Wu Wang not a righteous person?" This shows Liu Bei's knowlege of history. Liu Bei was an educated man and showed it many times over his career.
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Unread postby James » Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:04 am

Changes wrote:Where did he show it?

And beyond what was said just above, he showed it in his ability to found one of the Three Kingdoms despite numerous defeats and brushes with near ruin, starting from basically nothing. That alone sets him apart from the masses. On a historical note, the novel actually takes credit from Liu Bei, where it is properly deserved, and gives it to other people (e.g. Xu Shu, Zhuge Liang) when he was the man who truly made things happen. He was a skilled commander, an able strategist, a wise statesman, and a charismatic leader. On the other hand, he wasn’t as noble and whiny as the novel makes him out to be.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:58 am

Liu Bei does seem pretty simple through out the book in his actions, remeber his stratedgy at Yi Ling?


You mean nearly ambushing the entire Wu army? Or the check point system which he later used to help cover the retreat? Losing becuase your men get lax and someone has an inspirational idea isn't too condeming of Liu Bei who had a fine career

Liu Bei does seem to have been tuaght well, he was a very good commander, able to come up with his own succesful plans(Bo Wang Po for example) and was good at the politcal game. No Cao Cao sure but that is hardly an insult
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Unread postby Sun Gongli » Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:55 pm

Liu Bei certainly was no average man, but he certainly didn't "ambush" anyone at Yiling. He used brute force to advance through some Wu territories before overextending his formation. If he hadn't advanced so far forward, he wouldn't have ended up losing people like Huang Quan and Pang Lin to Wei when they got cut off by Wu's counterattack. Yiling was a dismal stain on Liu Bei's otherwise admirable career.
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Unread postby James » Sat Oct 07, 2006 5:07 pm

Yi Ling was indeed a horrible stain. It has been debated one way into another, over and over, and I still imagine that he didn’t truly have his head about him in managing that campaign. Too many inconsistencies with his regular track record. I don’t know if it was age catching up with him, or anger over the deaths of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei, but his Yi Ling invasion could have been carried out much better.

Dong Zhou wrote:No Cao Cao sure but that is hardly an insult

Cao Cao himself thought of Liu Bei as the only man on his own level.
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