Do you think Liu Bei was right in taking Liu Zhang's land?

[Dong Zhou]

I think the Han was corrupt though Cao Cao did reform it into something more my liking but Liu Zhang was a good appointment. However if the argument is that he was no longer a Han governor then I belive otherwise so say so

[Liu Bei228]

How was Liu Zhang a good appointment, he never got into wars but, still the pop of his kingdom droped.

[Dong Zhou]

The peoople of Shu liked him and while he lacked authroity, he was generally peaceful, the land didn't go to heck in a hand basket, good appointment.

Peroid of civil war and unrest, people died even in Shu. You might note the huge population drop around the whole of the land.

[Shi Tong]

I'm not saying he wasn't Han appointed, I'm asking what sort of authority and quality any Han appointment would have?

Surely if it was Cao Cao's reformed government, then he would have perpousfully put Liu Zhang in control in order to overthrow him when he chose to instead of a stronger leader like Liu Bei who was going to stand against him.

[Dong Zhou]

I'm not saying a Han appointment meant the man was valid, it was strength of arms and other milatry factors that detirmned the matter

Liu Zhang was already in Shu and governing it so why change it around?

[LiuBeiwasGreat]

I'm not saying a Han appointment meant the man was valid, it was strength of arms and other milatry factors that detirmned the matter

Liu Zhang was already in Shu and governing it so why change it around?

Well it was usually better to not put a man from the region in charge of it. Since Liu Zhang had people who had served his father they might have more loyalty to him then to the emperor. By putting a person who wasn't from that region it is harder to get the locals behind you for a rebellion lets say. If you use someone who is from that region they are more likely to work for his personal ambition. So even though it is more efficiant to use a local it is dangerous at the same time.

[Sun Gongli]

There are casualties in war. In order to establish himself as an independent power and not end up being a subordinate of Sun Quan's, Liu Bei had to conquer the Shu territory. There were really no other viable areas for him to set up his rule, because Jing was contested and under constant attack, while attacking Yang would have been a betrayal of Sun Quan's trust, and Jiao was so far removed from anything that it would have done Liu Bei no good to conquer it. Although I don't believe Liu Zhang was incompetent in the slightest (just very relaxed - a bit too much so), he wouldn't have done anything to unite the land. He only wanted to deal with Zhang Lu and get it over with. Liu Bei attacking Liu Zhang may not have been right, but it may have been necessary. I don't think it makes Liu Bei a bad person. It does show that he is willing to set aside his dedication to justice and virtue momentarily to further his ends, but this only makes him human.

[Shi Tong]

I recon that Liu Zhang, effectively appointed by Cao Cao had no real authority other than to further the ends of Cao himself. Personally I think that he wanted Zhang Lu and Liu Zhang to attack each other and weaken the whole area.. after having done so, Cao would be free to march in, as he usually did and in the same way he did with the Yuans.

[Sun Gongli]

I recon that Liu Zhang, effectively appointed by Cao Cao had no real authority other than to further the ends of Cao himself. Personally I think that he wanted Zhang Lu and Liu Zhang to attack each other and weaken the whole area.. after having done so, Cao would be free to march in, as he usually did and in the same way he did with the Yuans.

Liu Zhang wasn't appointed by Cao Cao. He received his position during the court of Li Jue and Guo Si.

[JamesD]

I recon that Liu Zhang, effectively appointed by Cao Cao had no real authority other than to further the ends of Cao himself. Personally I think that he wanted Zhang Lu and Liu Zhang to attack each other and weaken the whole area.. after having done so, Cao would be free to march in, as he usually did and in the same way he did with the Yuans.

Liu Zhang wasn't appointed by Cao Cao. He received his position during the court of Li Jue and Guo Si.

He was recognized by Cao Cao and the courts.