Do you think Liu Bei was right in taking Liu Zhang's land?

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Was Liu Bei justified in taking his land?

yes
37
63%
No
22
37%
 
Total votes : 59

Do you think Liu Bei was right in taking Liu Zhang's land?

Unread postby JamesD » Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:56 pm

Liu Zhang was first off a Han appointed govenor, allied with Liu Bei, Bei later betrayed him, was neutral for most of the time.
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Unread postby Jordan » Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:16 am

"War does not determine who is right, it only determines who is left."

;)
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:39 am

James,

I dont know if it's right or wrong.

For Liu Bei it was right because it gave him lands to control.

The question is really "what would have happened to Shu if Liu Bei had not taken control?", in other words, would it be better for the people of Shu if Liu Bei had not taken over?

The answer to that question is probably no, because they stood less chance of getting an army together to fight with Wei and Wu and it would have become the forgotten Western realm which would have gone by the wayside and left for dead.

I think therefore that Liu Bei was probably a better leader for Shu, but weather he was right or wrong- it depends on what perspective you take.
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Unread postby Sun Gongli » Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:15 pm

I look at it from this way: when Sun Quan and Liu Bei were first closely allied, Sun Quan asked Liu Bei for advice on attacking Liu Zhang. Liu Bei said something along the lines of, "Liu Zhang is my clansman, he has committed no fault, yadda yadda." His quick turnabout not only ticked off Sun Quan, but it also showed a pattern of dishonesty which permanently damaged relations between the two rulers.
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Unread postby Equivalential » Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:36 am

Considering that you can probably justify everything with the right reason, I'd look at it from a strict moral angle. From there, it'd be 'no'.

Liu Zhang was his clansman, was legitimate. If Liu Bei wants to help him while keeping him in power---Zhuge Liang should be able to help him plan the political manuevers. Unless Liu Zhang is a CLEAR tyrant, which he's not, I don't think it's a morally right thing to do. Practically? Yes, maybe, like the other two have said before, but I can't say for sure since all we know of what really happened there is kinda scarce. But as a moral thing, no, I don't think so.
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:17 am

I agree with Equivalential actually, I think morally it was probably wrong to betray Liu Zhang.. on the other hand, was it morally justified to save the people in Shu who were probably going to be victims of Wei or Wu, or in fact, with a badly led government (by Liu Zhang) be, like the rest of China at the time, in desperate need of food and other resources.

We all know at the time that China was very low on resources because of the Han corruption.
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Unread postby Zhao Zilong » Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:28 pm

SlickSlicer wrote:"War does not determine who is right, it only determines who is left."

;)


I hate to think that war is such a black and white ideal, but SlickSlicer's opinion seems to express the events that occur in San Guo. This is why Jin overcame the Three Kingdoms.
"Do not bar the gates," said Zhao Zilong. "Have you never heard of my exploit at Dangyang, when I laughed at Cao Cao's many legions? Now that I have an army at my back and generals to help, what is there to fear?"
~SGYY, Chapter 71, Paragraph 119
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Unread postby Liu Bei228 » Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:00 pm

Liu Biao got his job cause some officers rebeled then when they try to take it off him he refused, he lossed his right to the land then and he did nothing for it either.

Liu Bei had no right to invade the land but, it was a smart move, he needed the land and sometimes Liu Bei gotta do whats best for him.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:10 pm

Liu Biao got his job cause some officers rebeled then when they try to take it off him he refused, he lossed his right to the land then and he did nothing for it either.


I take it you mean Zhang

The Han did appoint him Governor after that I belive, maybe wrong.

on the other hand, was it morally justified to save the people in Shu who were probably going to be victims of Wei or Wu, or in fact, with a badly led government (by Liu Zhang) be, like the rest of China at the time, in desperate need of food and other resources.


So they get to be victims of Liu Bei instead of Wu? Wei had an alliance with Liu Zhang so seem safe from attack by Cao Cao. Nor does Shu seem to be badly led and starving, it was getting along quite contentdly.
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Unread postby Liu Bei228 » Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:16 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:I take it you mean Zhang

The Han did appoint him Governor after that I belive, maybe wrong.

Another man got it but, dued to rebellion Liu Zhang got it. Then they try to take it from him but, he refused.
So they get to be victims of Liu Bei instead of Wu? Wei had an alliance with Liu Zhang so seem safe from attack by Cao Cao. Nor does Shu seem to be badly led and starving, it was getting along quite contentdly.

I recall much talk on how the land was under him.
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