If Liu Bei was more patient?

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If Liu Bei was more patient?

Unread postby lord darwin of sibarani » Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:37 am

what happens if liu bei had more patient not to attack wu kingdoms ? what kingdom would be fall first ? 8-)
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:09 am

He waited two years to attack Wu, he was right to retilate. Shu still falls first if he can't Jing back, Shu is going to die and while no Yi Ling means a few more talents alive, I'm not sure it is enough to preserve Shu
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Unread postby Six_and_Up » Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:05 am

Interesting scenario. If Liu Bei did not attack Wu one of two possibilities:

- attacks north or
- sits patiently in Shu

I'm not sure the latter would've been his course of action since he was in his early 60's and he probably thought he did not have much left in him.

Any thoughts on what would happen should he strike northward?
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:36 am

What would you suggest Liu Bei do if not attack Wu in vengence?

If Liu didn't attack Wu though, and say he did attack North with Zhuge as his right hand man, then maybe they would have had a better chance at munching away at some of that Wei territory, but I feel that if Wu knew that Shu was attacking Wei, then they would take advantage of their situation and attack Shu's rear through Jing.

If they were to attack the North then Shu would have to ensure a constant struggle between Wu and Wei, in which case Yi Ling would have looked more attractive anyway- if Wu and Wei are inflicting great losses on each other then there's more chance that Shu can win by taking advantage of this.

I'm surprised myself that Wei didn't attack Wu more vigorously after they tried to frame them for Guan Yu's death (head in a box) and this may have lead to a better situation for Shu.
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Unread postby Zhilong » Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:16 am

Before any attack on Wei, Liu Bei has to repair relations with Wu and / or incite Wei and Wu to fight.

Sitting patiently would also be a good idea and let both sides think Shu has no strength to issue forth. Then bang, catch Wei unawares.
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Unread postby Sun Gongli » Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:02 pm

Liu Bei had good reason to attack Wu, but it's his timing that stunk. He handled the whole mess poorly: what he should have done was given in to Sun Quan and recalled Guan Yu from Jing, concentrated his whole expansion northwards, and THEN deal with Wu. Since Wu's hand was forced early, his second best move would've been to pretend to forgive them and concentrate on gaining more from the destruction of Wei than Wu would have so that he would've been in a more favorable position to invade Wu.
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Unread postby JamesD » Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:42 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:He waited two years to attack Wu, he was right to retilate. Shu still falls first if he can't Jing back, Shu is going to die and while no Yi Ling means a few more talents alive, I'm not sure it is enough to preserve Shu


I would have to agree with you on this one. Shu could maybe have made a try of taking Jing but in the end Wei and Wu are to powerful for them at this time.
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Repair Relations with Wu

Unread postby Xian Xu » Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:03 pm

I think everyone has made good points why Liu Bei should have attacked, and I can understand your reasoning.

However, I feel it would have been wiser to repair relations with Wu rather than attack Wu.

Liu Bei had always made it his goal to take the north and retrieve the emperor. Going to war with Wu would only serve to weaken the southern kingdoms and strengthen the already dominant Wei.

If Liu Bei had succeeded and took Jing, inevitably it would have only created more hostility and therefore prolong war between Wu and Shu. That war would become cumbersome for Shu, because the Wu area is much easier to defend than Jing. As the Shu army slowly weakened while occupied with Wu in Jing, Wei would eventually take advantage of the situation to attack Shu’s weaknesses in the north.

Dong Zhou wrote:... no Yi Ling means a few more talents alive, I'm not sure it is enough to preserve Shu

Shu lost more than good officers in Yi Ling. Shu lost a significant chuck of their soldiers and population. Losing a considerable portion of their army was especially detrimental, because Shu was already significantly smaller in numbers in comparison to Wu and Wei. Having to rebuild a large portion of the army only hindered the Sourthern and Northern Campaigns. Nevertheless, Dong Zhou is still probably right, adverting loses at Yi Ling probably would not have saved Shu. :(
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Unread postby Zhao Zilong » Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:10 pm

I think that Liu Bei's move to avenge Guan Yu was not the best course of action for Shu. Though Liu Bei's motive for keeping the Peach Garden Oath was emotional, he had to do what was right for his Kingdom. More importantly, he placed his personal affairs above matters of the state, as Zhao Yun eloquently put it.

Shu really needed to adopt a defensive policy in order for Wei and Wu to fight. Wu's defensive policy helped their survival without a doubt.
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Re: Repair Relations with Wu

Unread postby Liu Bei228 » Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:07 pm

Sun Gongli wrote:Liu Bei had good reason to attack Wu, but it's his timing that stunk. He handled the whole mess poorly: what he should have done was given in to Sun Quan and recalled Guan Yu from Jing, concentrated his whole expansion northwards, and THEN deal with Wu.

Why did Sun Quan deserve the land? Liu Bei conquered it and Sun Quan already took more then he learnt in the first attack.

Here's something for all the make peace with Wu people.

If your ally attacks you twice are you suppose to let him get away with it, why don't he just give them Yi while there at it? It really gets me steaming about how that ******-******* ******* Sun Quan attacked Shu, I think Liu Bei should have attacked him after he attacked the first time, I would have **** him up bad, ******* Wu.
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The teller says "Asking for something that doesn't belong to you, want are you? A Wu diplomat?"
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