Cao Cao is not evil...

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Cao Cao is not evil...

Unread postby agenda » Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:33 am

Yup, Imagine.. He has 1,000,000 soldiers, capable officers and probably more than half of china

All he has to do is force the Emperor to step down and voila! He's the most powerful man in the world and weaklings like Liu Zhang, Zhang Lu would have to surrender to him

He may have done some terrible things, But to achieve big things you have to do big things

But he didn't force the Emperor to step down.

I used to like Shu but now I'm starting to like Wei except Sima Yan for obvious reasons

And I simply detest Wu.
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Unread postby MarvelousLingTong!!!!!! » Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:53 am

And I simply detest Wu.


Why do you dislike Wu so much?
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Unread postby Wo Long » Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:14 am

MarvelousLingTong!!!!!! wrote:
And I simply detest Wu.


Why do you dislike Wu so much?


Probably because they're boring. :lol:

I jest, but from a novel standpoint, there isn't much to like about them. They have some interesting characters, but otherwise, Shu and Wei are generally the ones who the book focuses on.
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Unread postby agenda » Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:33 am

Wu were traitors from as far as the anti dong zhuo coalition
And they betrayed Shu at Jing

And I don't understand why people even like them

Maybe Zhou Yu and Sun Ce are cool but other than that :x
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:55 am

agenda wrote:Wu were traitors from as far as the anti dong zhuo coalition
And they betrayed Shu at Jing

And I don't understand why people even like them

Maybe Zhou Yu and Sun Ce are cool but other than that :x


If it hadn't been for "Wu" ie Sun Jian, the Coalition would have been an even bigger farce then it was. Sure, other kingdoms wouldn't trust them much, but the same could be said of most other lords and Shu hardly came out of the Jing debacle smelling of roses

Perhaps becuase they where a big kingdom who took on Wei and had a lot of intresting and odd characters?

What about Pan Zheng, Gan Ning, Lu Meng, Lu Kuang, Zhang Zhao and many others? Admitally I dislike the first two but they are intresting characters
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Unread postby MarvelousLingTong!!!!!! » Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:29 pm

Probably because they're boring.

I jest, but from a novel standpoint, there isn't much to like about them


You are right about that. From the novel standpoint Wu is the lame third wheel. The only time it ever showed Wu after Chi Bi was to hear Sun Quan complain about how he wants Jing or to see him lose another battle at He Fei.
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Unread postby JamesD » Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:08 pm

agenda wrote:Wu were traitors from as far as the anti dong zhuo coalition
And they betrayed Shu at Jing

And I don't understand why people even like them

Maybe Zhou Yu and Sun Ce are cool but other than that :x


Well historically there was know Wu after the Anti-Dong Zhou Coalition. They were serving Yuan Shu. Wu are traders to the Han as well. They took over two provinces owned by Han appointed govenors. Liu Yao and Wang Lang.

Also Wei is seen as evil because of the novel. Every kingdom historically did some bad things.
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Unread postby James » Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:56 pm

Consider this perspective. Maybe Cao Cao <i>did</i> do everything he could possibly come up with in order to ascend to power. Maybe he spared the emperor his throne because he believed that was the quickest route to authority? It certainly worked out for him. It gave his family legitimacy, a claim to the throne (eventually), and protection against other warlords.

If he dethroned Xian he probably wouldn't have gained as much power (I doubt those rulers would have respected his title having usurped the emperor) and it would have been easy for the likes of Liu Bei to organize a coalition against him.

There were, of course, the historical bits of his ‘frolic’ in Tao Qian’s lands, or the manner in which he resolved the large number of soldiers who surrendered after he defeated Yuan Shao after Guan Du. Certainly not a humane approach in either case.

Evil? No, simply ambitious. Not a good guy, though!
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Unread postby Sun Gongli » Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:26 pm

JamesD wrote:
agenda wrote:Wu were traitors from as far as the anti dong zhuo coalition
And they betrayed Shu at Jing

And I don't understand why people even like them

Maybe Zhou Yu and Sun Ce are cool but other than that :x


Well historically there was know Wu after the Anti-Dong Zhou Coalition. They were serving Yuan Shu. Wu are traders to the Han as well. They took over two provinces owned by Han appointed govenors. Liu Yao and Wang Lang.

Also Wei is seen as evil because of the novel. Every kingdom historically did some bad things.


We've already been over the Liu Yao/Wang Lang thing:

1. Liu Yao was at war with Yuan Shu, who at the time was ALSO a Han appointed governor. Sun Ce was given troops by Yuan Shu to attack Liu Yao, who was currently attacking Wu Jing and Sun Ben, Sun Ce's relatives. I think Sun Ce had good reason to attack Liu Yao, and the fact that he took in Liu Yao's orphaned sons shows a lot about his compassion.

2. Wang Lang was given the chance to be Sun Ce's ally. Instead, he chose to ally with Yan Baihu, who had no legitimate rule and was a bandit who harmed the people. If you had a choice, would you ally with the guy who peasants and volunteer soldiers are flocking to, or to the tribal leader who's been oppressing his people for a long time?
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Unread postby Lexus Fiend » Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:28 am

Concerning Cao Cao, I think James hit the nail on the head by emphasizing his ambition. He wasn't a chior boy obviously, but he's not the horrible man some make him out to be. He's jut ambitious, and successful...a recipe for haters...

And to touch on Wu, I have to laugh at everyone that chimes in about how they 'hate' and/or 'detest' Wu. It's funny to me, and when asked the reason for their hatred, more often than not there isn't a tangible answer at all.
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