Liu Bei vs. Lu Bu

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Who betrayed who?

Liu Bei was betrayed by that scrumbag Lu Bu.
8
32%
Lu Bu was betrayed by that huge faker Liu Bei.
5
20%
By the end they were even.
12
48%
 
Total votes : 25

Liu Bei vs. Lu Bu

Unread postby Liu Bei228 » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:51 am

Okay, I get into alot of debate about Liu Bei and Lu Bu and who was the ultimate betrayer to the other man so I decided we need a post.

I for one think Lu Bu wrong Liu Bei badly and that time he did save him was only because he needed someone between him and Yuan Shu. He mde the first move so anything Liu Bei does is justified.
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Unread postby Sean » Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:23 am

I don't think that Liu Bei could've survived a fight between him and Ji Ling/Yuan Shu, so I think that's one favor for Lu Bu.

But remember that Lu Bu took Liu Bei's castle from under Liu Bei's feet, so that takes away his favor. Liu Bei's only course of action would be to take back what was his, so he joined with Cao Cao. There's no fault in that.

They were even in the end, but it's mostly Lu Bu's fault for taking the castle.
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:11 am

Well, I think I agree with Liu Bei 228 because Lu Shouldn't have acted so agressively in the first place.

It's all good and well saying "two wrongs dont make a right", but at the same time, I think that during these times, people needed to do what they thought was for the common good rather than what was good for themselves- and I dont think that Lu Bu was out to do anything for the common good.
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Unread postby Liu Bei228 » Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:27 am

Sean wrote:I don't think that Liu Bei could've survived a fight between him and Ji Ling/Yuan Shu, so I think that's one favor for Lu Bu.

But remember that Lu Bu took Liu Bei's castle from under Liu Bei's feet, so that takes away his favor. Liu Bei's only course of action would be to take back what was his, so he joined with Cao Cao. There's no fault in that.

They were even in the end, but it's mostly Lu Bu's fault for taking the castle.

You forgot that Lu Bu attacked Liu Bei again unprovoked, thats another bad thing on Lu Bu.
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"Give me all your money." He say to the teller.

The teller says "Asking for something that doesn't belong to you, want are you? A Wu diplomat?"
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Unread postby Lafeel » Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:19 pm

Pretty much even stevens..Neither was someone that I'd trust entirely..But then again I am known to be paranoid..
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Liu Bei was driven by ambition

Unread postby Xian Xu » Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:25 pm

I like this topic. I have been wondering if anyone would start this topic.

Based on gut reaction alone, when I read the novel, the two points I was most disappointed with Liu Bei’s character were during the events that lead up to Yi Ling and when he told Cao Cao to kill Lü Bu. I felt his choice to betray Lü Bu betrayed his forgiving and virtuous personality.

Nonetheless, his actions can be justified to some degree; I cannot think of a prominent figure that Lü Bu had continuous good relations with at any time!

Shi Tong wrote:I think that during these times, people needed to do what they thought was for the common good rather than what was good for themselves- and I dont think that Lu Bu was out to do anything for the common good.


You state that people needed to do what they thought was right, but I am not sure that people were ever consistently driven by good intentions. You can argue that this instance is an example of Liu Bei doing something for the greater good. Certainly, Liu Bei benefited from Lü Bu’s death. Lü Bu would have never been good news for Liu Bei and his ambition, especially once Lü Bu joined Cao Cao. Cao Cao had the discipline, wit and supporting officers to manipulate Lü Bu much more effectively than Dong Zhuo or Ding Yuan. I must admit, it would have been comical if Lü Bu had served Cao Cao nad declared Cao Cao his stepfather as he did with Dong Zhuo and Ding Yuan, because Cao Cao was only one year older than Lü Bu. :lol:
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:02 pm

The thing about Lu Bu's death is that Liu Bei had to remind Cao Cao of his track record. If Cao didn't value Liu Bei's opinion, or Liu Bei wasn't Cao Cao's ally at the time then I dont know if Lu Bu would have been killed because Cao Cao would have wanted to use him.

I dont think that Lu Bu would have been easily controlled by Cao Cao- remember that Lu Bu killed Ding Yuan for a better position (he wanted promotion) and once he'd killed Dong Zhou he was also given higher position. I understand that the run up to the death of Dong Zhou that Lu Bu was driven by other forces (in the novel especially), but I think that Lu Bu should have had more faith in Dong Zhou and Ding Yuan because he'd declared both of them were his step fathers (I think historically this didn't happen with Dong Zhou, but I'm not sure).

Concider how important it was to serve faithfully those who you were employed by and called your lord, then concider that Lu Bu broke that promise several times- he "served" Ding Yuan and then killed him- he "served" Liu Bei and betrayed him, he "served" Dong Zhou and killed him too.

I think that Cao should have been worried about his own neck- and Liu Bei probably saved it because he was the one being faithful to Cao Cao.
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Unread postby Xiahou Jia » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:17 pm

I don't think Lu Bu would have a single chance to kill Cao Cao. My conclusion is based on the novel, so may be historically it's not true.
Both Dong Zhuo and Ding Yuan were killed because they allowed Lu Bu to be very close to them. Cao Cao was a very cautious person and Lu Bu had a "very nice" reputation by that time. As far as I remember only Xiahou Dun had the right to meet Cao Cao without much trouble. There was a case when Cao Ren (or Cao Hong) was not allowed by Xu Chu to see Cao Cao, because Cao Cao was sleeping.
Li Ru was the only capable advisor at Dong Zhuo's disposal but he was able to see the problems and Cao Cao had a whole army of advisors apart from his own cunning to warn him if Lu Bu was starting to plot.
I'm not sure that Lu Bu would serve Cao Cao - he could leave Cao Cao's forces and try his luck anywhere else, but I'm sure that Cao Cao would never give Lu Bu a chance to kill him.
Cao Cao made a mistake and the same mistake was made later when he executed Cai Mao and Zhang Yun and then regretted his rush decision.
I think Liu Bei is a bigger traitor to Lu Bu, because Lu Bu could kill Liu Bei but spared him though took his land. He could also give Yuan Shu a chance to capture Liu Bei and then decide his fate, and if I'm not mistaken Yuan Shu was a person who really disliked Liu Bei. Liu Bei could ask Cao Cao to spare Lu Bu but he did the opposite.
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Unread postby WarriorWorthAThousand » Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:20 pm

Well, Liu Bei was a scion of the imperial family, but the emperor didn't know that at the time, and he had no real office. Lu Bu, however, had a very nice rank IIRC. Judging from the eyes of the emperor, Xuande was a wannabe, and Lu Bu was a respectable (if not very loyal) warlord. So I think Lu Bu was serving the empire more in the short run.
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Liu Bei's Choice

Unread postby Xian Xu » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:34 am

Shi Tong wrote:The thing about Lu Bu's death is that Liu Bei had to remind Cao Cao of his track record. If Cao didn't value Liu Bei's opinion, or Liu Bei wasn't Cao Cao's ally at the time then I dont know if Lu Bu would have been killed because Cao Cao would have wanted to use him.


It is almost certain that Cao Cao valued Liu Bei's opinion. The only other reason he would ask Liu Bei's opinion is if he was using Liu Bei's anticipated response to reaffirm his predetermined decision to execute Lü Bu.

I do not think that Liu Bei and Cao Cao's relationship would determine whether Cao Cao would want to use Lü Bu. Cao Cao was surrounded by enemies (direct enemies and indirect through his ambition) and could always use more great generals eventhough he already had a plethora of great generals.

Shi Tong wrote:Concider how important it was to serve faithfully those who you were employed by and called your lord, then concider that Lu Bu broke that promise several times...


Loyalty was of very high importance, I would never deny that. However I think Liu Bei's decision was based on ambition, not on justice.

Shi Tong wrote:I dont think that Lu Bu would have been easily controlled by Cao Cao- remember that Lu Bu killed Ding Yuan for a better position (he wanted promotion) and once he'd killed Dong Zhou he was also given higher position. I understand that the run up to the death of Dong Zhou that Lu Bu was driven by other forces (in the novel especially), but I think that Lu Bu should have had more faith in Dong Zhou and Ding Yuan because he'd declared both of them were his step fathers (I think historically this didn't happen with Dong Zhou, but I'm not sure).

...

I think that Cao should have been worried about his own neck- and Liu Bei probably saved it because he was the one being faithful to Cao Cao.


I agree totally with the beginning of Xiahou Jia's post (above WarriorWorthAThousand's post) that Lü Bu would have never had the chance to kill Cao Cao, because he was wiser and he had better advisors than Dong Zhuo and Ding Yuan.

To solidify my point, I take a quote from Sanguo Yanyi editor Mao Zonggang. Mao Zonggang also reaffirms that Liu Bei was acting out of ambition by comparing his possible decisions.

Mao Zonggang wrote:There are some who hold the view that Xuande, knowing the fate of Ding Yuan and Dong Zhuo, should have tried to persuade Cao Cao to retain Lü Bu. I disagree. Cao was a far different sort from Zhuo and Yuan. He would have known how to make use of Bu and guard against him at the same time. Xuande would only have been augmenting Cao's strength.
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