What's this Lu Bu worship that I see all over the place?

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Re: Re:

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:05 pm

tofu wrote: Yes, Lu Bu had a great fighting skills, but that was probably the only thing good about him-he was a disloyal backstabbing traitor. Guan Yu on the other hand, was extremely loyal-you can't just judge him on one thing he did wrong-and Guan Yu, unlike Lu Bu, had friends, and a functioning brain, also unlike Lu Bu.


Sorry, which one had people loyal to him to death, beat Cao Cao in battle and was the only one to see Ji Ling's attack as a threat to Lu Bu? Hint, it isn't Guan Yu :wink:

If we are comparing the historical Lu Bu and Guan Yu, there are several factors to consider

Personality:

1) Loyalty. The main thing people beat Lu Bu for, murdering Ding Yuan and Dong, whatever reasons he had is always going to leave a bad taste in the mouth and overshadow the times he was loyal. Mind you trying to be a warlord tends to put one low on morality stakes. While there are some questions over whether surrendering to Cao Cao was loyal in the first place, the fact Guan Yu returned gives him a major victory over Lu Bu here.

2) Morality. Lu Bu killed two lords, granted one of them an evil tyrant, did some bad things for Dong, slept with a maid, betrayed Liu Bei and undermined He Zhen, clearly not a greatly moral person. Yet he did show some moments of class, offering his resignation when his troops went out of control, accepting rebukes from Gao Shun and others, offering his head to his servants so they could get rich. Guan Yu has the returning to Liu Bei and the wife stealing thing. I'm going to give it to Guan Yu

3) Charisma. Lu Bu gathered many able men to him and as mentioned, his servants refused to kill him even when offered, he was friends with Zhang Miao and Zhang Yun. Dong tried to kill him, so did Yuan Shao but this reflects more on them then Lu Bu, unsettled Liu Bei. Unsure exactly how Yuan Shu and Lu Bu fell out when he fled to Yuan, sources clash between Yuan dislike and Lu Bu being arrogant. His officer Hu Meng attacked him at night at one point but Gao Shun and Zang Ba stayed loyal despite arguments with Lu Bu, old allies Yuan Shu and Zhang Yang did their best to help in his final defeat. Guan Yu was friends with Xu Huang and Zhang Liao as well as Liu Bei and Zhang Fei but he was betrayed by many around him including Liu Feng. Narrow either way

Ability:

Leadership: Guan Yu's record as a general reads many defeats, one victory and that was not a leadership based victory. His treatment of Mi Fang and the collapse of his army reflect badly on him. Lu Bu kept Ding Yuan's army from collapsing after death, lost to Sun Jian when Lu Bu was rearguard. No blame for defeat to Li Jue, backstabbed and once defenses were breached, there was nothing he could do despite valiant efforts, defeated the larger forces of Zhang Yan, hardly an incompetent, but lost control of his troops after that. Took Puyang and most of Yan, he defeated Cao Cao in battle and had the better of the battles for a 100 days, winning several times, even captured Cao Cao while Cao Cao even considered submitting to Yuan Shao. Locusts forced an end to the war and Lu Bu lost the momentum. His ravaged army was defeated by Li Jin as he sought supplies, forced to retreat to Liu Bei the next summer, it helped that Cao Cao was able to use 2 armies. Marched quickly to defeat Zhang Fei, defeated Liu Bei's ravaged army. Defeated Liu Bei when Bei raised troops, using Chen Gui's tactics, triple teams Zhang Xun and gets a great victory. Unable to overcome Zang Ba's defenses. Treated his generals well but failed to bring them into order, they split into factions and quarreled which did not help rather then planning, he had to reject one plan because the commanders left to hold the city (Gong and Gao Shun) had been at each other's throats. Professor Rafe notes him as a poor organizer, his men failed too ordinate and this led them to losing several times in the final invasion. I suppose Hou Cheng's defection counts as a leadership failing rather then charisma one, it took awhile and Lu Bu did not beat Cheng. It was a rather bizarre comment from a tired and unhappy Lu Bu who seems to have been exhausted at the end. In the end, would give it to Lu Bu as he got the better of a brilliant commander and did it for 100 days whereas Guan Yu's only win was due to intelligence

Martial Ability: Lu Bu was considered an excellent archer, horseman and the strongest man of his time, his ability as a fighter is praised often, he acted as bodyguard, he won a duel and amazed everyone with his archery to force a peace. Guan Yu was a very strong warrior, brave and killed a general in battle, however with Bu's archery, horse skills and being strongest of the time, would give it to Lu Bu

Intelligence: Guan Yu's intelligence weakness was political, he showed some smarts against Yu Jin (though I accept there is some question over if it was a fluke) and exploiting a gap to kill Yan Liang, not so smart when he rejected rank due to a sulk. Lu Bu was often criticized for being hasty, lacking foresight, that kind of thing yet he had his moments. Not sure why Lu Bu chose mid campaign to fall out with Hu Zhen and quarrel with the commander. Took immediate action after Dong's death to calm the jittery onlooker, proposed executing the likes of Li Jue and splitting Dong's treasury with the officials, had either of this been followed then Wang Yun's government would have survived. Realized Yuan Shao was unhappy when troops went out of control so offered resignation, realized Yuan Shao was going to kill him and outwitted the killers by using music to convince them he was in his tent. Didn't seize routes between Cao Cao in Xu and Yan by going behind the three loyalist cities, instead went for the throat. Predicted Cao Cao's night raid, utilized the chaos due to Zhang Fei's governing to seize Xu. Cleverly forced Ji Ling to withdraw without a battle but alarms Zang Ba when going to him personally over a minor disagreement, accepted Gao Shun's rebuke even if he couldn't act on it. Rejected Chen Gong's advice, not in itself a problem as Gong's advice isn't automatically right, Lu Bu's wife had very valid objections to one plan however Lu Bu didn't come up with anything else and was rather cautious when Cao Cao invaded. Did think of surrendering but in the end simply remained on the defense, surrendered when defections cost him a city and he had to withdraw to tower. Would give it to Lu Bu, made some errors but showed some bright moments

Administration: Lu Bu started his career as a civil officer, no troubles but no particularly good comments about his administration as Governor of Xu. Guan Yu showed a capability to quickly build up an army and as a governor but Lu Meng's actions on taking over Jing were considered to have surpassed Guan Yu's governing during peace.

Politics: Guan Yu made a complete muck up of it in Jing, showing lack of tact and poor judgment, been discussed elsewhere. Lu Bu was erratic, he was the only one to see that the Ji Ling attack on Liu Bei endangered him. Bungled things badly when he first allied with Yuan Shu and having made that horrible error, compounded it by then canceling it. That one good moment is still more then Guan Yu managed so would give to Lu Bu

Overall: Guan Yu was a better person, a brave warrior and an able administrator but made some horrible errors while not having the great deeds to balance it. Lu Bu did some horrible things and was unreliable yet was considered the strongest of his time, showed some brains as well as the moments of idiocy and was a skilled general who had some success. I would say Lu Bu was superior to Guan Yu as an officer in ability and success despite Lu Bu's gaping flaws
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Re: What's this Lu Bu worship that I see all over the place?

Unread postby Jordan » Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:09 am

Great post Dong Zhou. I agree completely. I am more of a fan of Lu Bu than Guan Yu, but Guan Yu definitely had his merits. In martial ability, they were both great whether you take history's version or the novel. Like you said though, I think Lu Bu beats Guan Yu as far as historical feats of strength go.

Would give it to Lu Bu, made some errors but showed some bright moments


This is also very true. Lu Bu was smarter than people give him credit for. For that matter, Guan Yu was no slouch either. His actions made people worry even as far as the capital. I do agree that in terms of honor, Guan Yu wins. Lu Bu and Guan Yu both had troubles with their subordinates and in both cases these troubles might be attributed to a certain degree of arrogance.
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Re: What's this Lu Bu worship that I see all over the place?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:06 am

I would say Lu Bu's falling out with his lords tended to be due to a mixture of arrogance and failure to keep his troops under control. Lu Bu's failings with his subordinates was due to inability/unwillingness to force them into line, he would never have threatened Mi Fang in the way Guan Yu did. Probably patted him on the head and given Fang a cookie

Lu Bu was upset with Hou Cheng for breaking the law, fair enough though again no punishment noted, it is his paranoid comment that probably set off the defection. With his contemplating surrender three times and exhausted actions after surrender, think Lu Bu was somewhat depressed or in decline at that time.
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