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The True Values of Zhuge Liang's Northern Expeditions

Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2002 3:32 am
by Mega Zarak
The northern expeditions undertaken by Zhuge Liang in his bid to restore Shu-Han dynasty were the last exploits of the Shu-Han Prime Minister before he passed away on the last one. Here's a brief summary for each of the expeditions:

Expedition 1 => In the spring of 228 A.D., Zhuge Liang launched the first northern expedition via Qi Shan. He recruited Jiang Wei but Ma Su subsequently lost Jie Ting and Zhuge Liang was forced to retreat to Han Zhong.

Expedition 2 => During the winter of the same year (228 A.D.), Zhuge Liang launched the second expedition via Shan Guan and he laid siege to Chen Cang. Zhuge Liang was forced to retreat when supplies ran out but he killed Wang Shuang while retreating, using an ambush.

Expedition 3 => In the spring of 229 A.D., Zhuge Liang attacked and occupied Wu Du as well as Yin Ping prefectures. As such, he was reinstated as the Shu Prime Minister by Liu Shan.

Expedition 4 => In February, 231 A.D., Zhuge Liang surrounded Qi Shan and he used the newly invented "Wooden Oxen" to transport army supplies. By May, Zhuge Liang defeated the Wei army at the City of Lu. There, Sima Yi entrenched himself, refusing to meet Zhuge Liang in an open battle. In June, Zhuge Liang was forced to retreat when supplies ran out. However, Zhuge Liang managed to shoot and kill Zhang He, who had pursued him, at Mu Men.

Expedition 5 => In February, 234 A.D., Zhuge Liang led his army northward again and stationed himself at Wu Zhang Yuan. By April, Zhuge Liang instructed his army to till the land near the River Wei in preparation for a protracted campaign. However, during August, Zhuge Liang died of sickness and fatigue at Wu Zhang Yuan.

The above summary is derived from SGZ and other historical sources. However, the discussion that follows need not be limited to historical discussion. The reason is because the values of Zhuge Liang's northern expeditions are not confined to those that benefited the State of Shu only, but also the future generations. :D

Re: The True Values of Zhuge Liang's Northern Expeditions

Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2002 3:57 am
by Zhang Ren
Great Deer wrote:Expedition 3 => In the spring of 229 A.D., Zhuge Liang attacked and occupied Wu Du as well as Yin Ping prefectures. As such, he was reinstated as the Shu Prime Minister by Liu Shan.


I thought the 3rd Expedition, Wei had Sima Yi, Cao Zhen and Zhang Ge attacking Shu. All Zhuge Liang could do is set up a 200km long stalemate on the border region. It was thank to Wei Yan that the stalemate was broken. Was my version of SGZ differ from your? :roll:

Re: The True Values of Zhuge Liang's Northern Expeditions

Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2002 5:20 am
by Mega Zarak
Zhang Ren wrote:I thought the 3rd Expedition, Wei had Sima Yi, Cao Zhen and Zhang Ge attacking Shu. All Zhuge Liang could do is set up a 200km long stalemate on the border region. It was thank to Wei Yan that the stalemate was broken. Was my version of SGZ differ from your? :roll:


If that's counted, then there'll be 6 expeditions! Most of the books I've read don't count that in cos Sima and gang were forced to retreat by the heavy rain. Also, it was Sima and gang who wanted to attack Shu and not Zhuge Liang trying to attack Wei, hence, it's not Zhuge Liang's expedition. :D

Re: The True Values of Zhuge Liang's Northern Expeditions

Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2002 4:38 pm
by Zhou Gongjin
Great Deer wrote:
Expedition 1 => In the spring of 228 A.D., Zhuge Liang launched the first northern expedition via Qi Shan. He recruited Jiang Wei but Ma Su subsequently lost Jie Ting and Zhuge Liang was forced to retreat to Han Zhong.


Oh goody! He recruited the person who would fail in ever next campaign for Shu. Such value!

Great Deer wrote:Expedition 2 => During the winter of the same year (228 A.D.), Zhuge Liang launched the second expedition via Shan Guan and he laid siege to Chen Cang. Zhuge Liang was forced to retreat when supplies ran out but he killed Wang Shuang while retreating, using an ambush.


That's our Zhuge Liang! :lol: Why kill someone in a fair fight when you can be a weasel and ambush him while you retreat? Woot! Zhuge Liang was such a great man wasn't he?

Great Deer wrote:Expedition 3 => In the spring of 229 A.D., Zhuge Liang attacked and occupied Wu Du as well as Yin Ping prefectures. As such, he was reinstated as the Shu Prime Minister by Liu Shan.


Two whole prefectures? How much resources did he use for that?

Great Deer wrote:Expedition 4 => In February, 231 A.D., Zhuge Liang surrounded Qi Shan and he used the newly invented "Wooden Oxen" to transport army supplies. By May, Zhuge Liang defeated the Wei army at the City of Lu. There, Sima Yi entrenched himself, refusing to meet Zhuge Liang in an open battle. In June, Zhuge Liang was forced to retreat when supplies ran out. However, he managed to ambush and kill Zhang He (at Mu Men) while retreating.


*points to Expidition 2* Another weasel act. Zhuge Liang can't go against the defense of Zhang He and Hao Zhao, so he killed Zhang He in another ambush while hightailing out of his battle.

Great Deer wrote:Expedition 5 => In February, 234 A.D., Zhuge Liang led his army northward again and stationed himself at Wu Zhang Yuan. By April, Zhuge Liang instructed his army to till the land near the River Wei in preparation for a protracted campaign. However, during August, Zhuge Liang died of sickness and fatigue at Wu Zhang Yuan.


Allow me to add to that.
Zhuge Liang first tried to assassinate Wei Yan by having him attack Sima Yi and burning the valley he was in. However his plot was ruined by the sudden rainfall. After he died, Ma Dai killed Wei Yan to protect Zhuge Liang's idiocy for rejecting Wei Yan's plan.
Now this proves to me that:
- Zhuge Liang was not skilled in predicting the weather, or else he would have known his plot would fail
- Zhuge Liang was a paranoid old man who could not stand up against someone as forceful like Wei Yan
- Zhuge Liang did not fight for the restoration of the dead Han Empire, but for his personal glory.

Summarizing, all of these expiditions only drained the land of Shu of food, men and other resources while getting nothing or very little in return. Later when Jiang Wei continued the war, all gained teritory was lost because Zhuge Liang did not replace Liu Shan like Liu Bei said.

Feel free to yell at me and call me biased like always :lol:

Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2002 11:25 pm
by Cao Ren
you wouldnt fight for your own personal fame and fortune? i thought it was pretty cool what he did with wei yan, but i was also disappointed that he killed him, I was so excited when Wei Yan rallied with ma dai. any way lol ya those were major weasal attacks on zhang he and wang shuang

Re: The True Values of Zhuge Liang's Northern Expeditions

Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2002 2:48 am
by Zhang Ren
Great Deer wrote:
Zhang Ren wrote:I thought the 3rd Expedition, Wei had Sima Yi, Cao Zhen and Zhang Ge attacking Shu. All Zhuge Liang could do is set up a 200km long stalemate on the border region. It was thank to Wei Yan that the stalemate was broken. Was my version of SGZ differ from your? :roll:


If that's counted, then there'll be 6 expeditions! Most of the books I've read don't count that in cos Sima and gang were forced to retreat by the heavy rain. Also, it was Sima and gang who wanted to attack Shu and not Zhuge Liang trying to attack Wei, hence, it's not Zhuge Liang's expedition. :D


Anyway, the two prefectures he took from the 3rd campaign he end up have to abandon it. I am not too sure if he had any longer term strategy at all.

Great Deer wrote:Expedition 4 => In February, 231 A.D., Zhuge Liang surrounded Qi Shan and he used the newly invented "Wooden Oxen" to transport army supplies. By May, Zhuge Liang defeated the Wei army at the City of Lu. There, Sima Yi entrenched himself, refusing to meet Zhuge Liang in an open battle. In June, Zhuge Liang was forced to retreat when supplies ran out. However, he managed to ambush and kill Zhang He (at Mu Men) while retreating.


The killing of Zhang He in an ambush was a bit fishy. Chen Shou never stated that Zhu Ger Liang set up an ambush to while retreating.

Re: The True Values of Zhuge Liang's Northern Expeditions

Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2002 3:02 am
by Mega Zarak
Zhang Ren wrote:Anyway, the two prefectures he took from the 3rd campaign he end up have to abandon it. I am not too sure if he had any longer term strategy at all.

I'm not sure about Wu Du prefecture right now. However, I think Yin Ping prefecture was still with Shu for years after Zhuge Liang's death. It was mentioned in Jiang Wei's bio (SGZ) that Jiang Wei had stationed his troops at Yin Ping for a few occasions. (hope it's the same Yin Ping though. :D )

Zhang Ren wrote:The killing of Zhang He in an ambush was a bit fishy. Chen Shou never stated that Zhu Ger Liang set up an ambush to while retreating.

Thanks for pointing that out. I've made the necessary changes in this post as well as the chronology of Zhuge Liang's life. :D

Unread postPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 5:43 am
by LING_TONG ^0^
I think Zhuge's true intention was to collect the power.

Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2004 2:25 pm
by Exar Kun
LING_TONG ^0^ wrote:I think Zhuge's true intention was to collect the power.
Like I said in the last thread you made this ridiculous assertion in,I'd like to see your proof of this.

If Zhuge wanted power he was given more than enough opportunity to take it.

Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:20 pm
by Zhilong
Yeah i think it was all for power. So that he could subsequently enjoy all that power by working himself to death. :roll: