The True Values of Zhuge Liang's Northern Expeditions

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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:47 pm

I am not too sure if he had any longer term strategy at all.


Agreed. He fights just like your average military general, he attacks without any plan, then he starts winning battles but can't keep going since there are measures involving something other then direct attacks that he cannot deal with. In his northern campaigns, Zhuge proved to lack long term planning and also proved that he is just another Wei Yan or something and can do no strategy but a direct attack. Sun Quan's attacks on Hefei had more strategy, but Quan did not have the skill as a general to succeed. Zhuge had the skill but not the strategy. In other words, he's kinda dumb. :lol:
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:05 am

PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote:Agreed. He fights just like your average military general, he attacks without any plan, then he starts winning battles but can't keep going since there are measures involving something other then direct attacks that he cannot deal with. In his northern campaigns, Zhuge proved to lack long term planning and also proved that he is just another Wei Yan or something and can do no strategy but a direct attack. Sun Quan's attacks on Hefei had more strategy, but Quan did not have the skill as a general to succeed. Zhuge had the skill but not the strategy. In other words, he's kinda dumb. :lol:


You're rather brave to go there I'll give you that.It's been some time but it's time again for you to get a hammering,no one disses Zhuge.:twisted:

1)"Attacks without any plan"?How quaint.No plan.I suppose a good plan would have been finding an enemy position to use as a forward base and then systematically take surrounding cities before moving against the main target.As in weaken a target with small strikes as much as possible before a final one.Or maybe something like setting up long term forward bases in enemy territory as a means of combating supply problems inherent in the mountains?Too bad Zhuge never had any plans along these lines. :roll:
Yes,you're bloody genius Bu Zhi.

2)Let's see,measures other than direct attacks...
One campaign had a disobeying commander,another supply shortages,another a lazy supply officer,another he died in.Gee,there's a huge pattern to all this isn't it?Amazing he wasn't able to figure out the progression.

3)Hoo boy,Christmas has come early.
Sun Quan's attacks on Hefei had more strategy, but Quan did not have the skill as a general to succeed.
Let's see.He Fei.He Fei.Ah yes,He Fei.Where he had every possible advantage.Numerical advantage,advantage in supply,advantage in commanders.Yet he STILL LOST.I'd like to know what his strategy was other than expect Wei to abandon He Fei when they saw him coming.I doubt even he was that ugly.

I also like the last statement,Quan had not the skill as a general.Thanks.You've just dissed the entire Wu army.Yep,every single one of the generals since they were all there to and they obviously now all suck according to you.

Wonderful job.
Really.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:34 am

Exar Kun wrote:You're rather brave to go there I'll give you that.It's been some time but it's time again for you to get a hammering,no one disses Zhuge.:twisted:


Well apparently I did. :twisted:

1)"Attacks without any plan"?How quaint.No plan.I suppose a good plan would have been finding an enemy position to use as a forward base and then systematically take surrounding cities before moving against the main target.As in weaken a target with small strikes as much as possible before a final one.Or maybe something like setting up long term forward bases in enemy territory as a means of combating supply problems inherent in the mountains?Too bad Zhuge never had any plans along these lines. :roll:


You got me there. :?

Yes,you're bloody genius Bu Zhi.


I know. :D

2)Let's see,measures other than direct attacks...
One campaign had a disobeying commander,another supply shortages,another a lazy supply officer,another he died in.Gee,there's a huge pattern to all this isn't it?Amazing he wasn't able to figure out the progression.


The only problem is, he picked that disobeying commander, he was in charge of supplies, he picked the lazy supply officer, and he died. So it was all kinda his fault except the dieing part.

3)Hoo boy,Christmas has come early.
Sun Quan's attacks on Hefei had more strategy, but Quan did not have the skill as a general to succeed.
Let's see.He Fei.He Fei.Ah yes,He Fei.Where he had every possible advantage.Numerical advantage,advantage in supply,advantage in commanders.Yet he STILL LOST.I'd like to know what his strategy was other than expect Wei to abandon He Fei when they saw him coming.I doubt even he was that ugly.


Apparently his first attack had strategy. He attacked Hefei while Zhang Zhao would surround them and then cut them off, and Hefei would surrender. Zhang Zhao's better then Ma Su though, he's a bad commander, but at least he follows orders. As for the second one, I'm sure having an illness in your army is considered an advantage, according to you.

I also like the last statement,Quan had not the skill as a general.Thanks.You've just dissed the entire Wu army.Yep,every single one of the generals since they were all there to and they obviously now all suck according to you.

Wonderful job.
Really.


Actually, I ment that Sun Quan is not a good commander. Lu Meng, Gan Ning, Ling Tong and his other guys are but he is not. [/quote]
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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Unread postby Zhilong » Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:20 am

The only problem is, he picked that disobeying commander, he was in charge of supplies, he picked the lazy supply officer, and he died. So it was all kinda his fault except the dieing part.

I'm guessing the disobeying commander would be Ma Su. I'd agree he should not have been given such a high command and ZL must foot alot of the responsibility for his failure since he is the commander-in-chief at the end of the day.

Regarding Li Yan supplying:
This person was more than capable of completing his allotted task. I think the blame should go to Li Yan in this case.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:26 pm

Li Yan was nothing. All he did to get his standing was beat some bandits and couldn't even handle something like transporting supplies. Jiang Wan or someone trusted should have done it.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Thu Oct 14, 2004 9:28 pm

PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote:The only problem is, he picked that disobeying commander, he was in charge of supplies, he picked the lazy supply officer, and he died. So it was all kinda his fault except the dieing part.


Then I can hold Sun Quan or any Wu high commander accountable whenever Wu does something stupid then?
"Wu lost Xiangyang because of Sun Quan"
Yes,it has a nice ring to it.
He picked those people based on good reasons and their failures can't be put down to a lack of judgement on his part.

Apparently his first attack had strategy. He attacked Hefei while Zhang Zhao would surround them and then cut them off, and Hefei would surrender. Zhang Zhao's better then Ma Su though, he's a bad commander, but at least he follows orders. As for the second one, I'm sure having an illness in your army is considered an advantage, according to you.


He...Fei...would...surrender.
That's your defense?!
That Sun Quan expected Zhang Liao to...surrender?
That's almost as stupid as sending a n army under Zhang Zhao.
Sun Quan proves he has absolutely no ability to understand his enemy.

Actually, I ment that Sun Quan is not a good commander. Lu Meng, Gan Ning, Ling Tong and his other guys are but he is not.


Then this shouldn't even be an issue.Sun Quan being a horrible commander is moot since he has capable men to do the work instead.Cancel that point of yours.
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Unread postby Huang Bob » Thu Oct 14, 2004 9:48 pm

Zhuge Liang chose not a disobeying commander, it was Ma Su, the commander, who decided to be disobedient.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:11 pm

That Sun Quan expected Zhang Liao to...surrender?


Who said Zhang Liao is loyal. He only betrayed Ding Yuan, Dong Zhuo, and Lu Bu. Why won't he surrender. If he has no food, he might as well eat his soldiers if he wants to continue fighting. Zhang Liao would surrender if he was sane and if not, he would die. No army can fight without suppies.

Also, in Hefei, Sun Quan did not use his capable generals in a seperate command. And I agree he was at fault for every commander he places who fails, but at the same time, many of his commanders succeed. Zhou Yu, Sun Yu, Cheng Pu, Lu Su, Lu Meng, Lu Xun, Zhu Ran, Zhu Huan, Lu Fan.

So techniquely, his failure is balanced out by his choice of competent followers. Cao Cao and Liu Bei also placed many incompetents as well but can balance it out because they had many more successes. Zhuge does not. He always places pathetic commanders and I have yet to see him use a competent military commander who wins other then Wei Yan or Wang Ping. He cannot select individual commanders well and other then the two I mentioned, the rest messed up and show how he is worse then Sun Quan in this particular feild.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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Unread postby Jiangji » Thu Oct 14, 2004 11:18 pm

LING_TONG ^0^ wrote:I think Zhuge's true intention was to collect the power.


This is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. He could have become Emperor himself but choose to serve Liu chan loyalty. He personally lead the army in the northen and sourthen campaign. He request nothing and never disobey liu chan order. Please provide evidence to back up your argument.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Thu Oct 14, 2004 11:27 pm

Jiangji wrote:
LING_TONG ^0^ wrote:I think Zhuge's true intention was to collect the power.


This is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. He could have become Emperor himself but choose to serve Liu chan loyalty. He personally lead the army in the northen and sourthen campaign. He request nothing and never disobey liu chan order. Please provide evidence to back up your argument.


Agreed.
Lu Xun- "After much observation of how Liu Bei had been leading troops in his career, I see that he had more failures than success; hence, he is not much of a threat."
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