Deng Ai, a match for Kongming?

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Who is better?

Deng Ai
13
23%
Zhuge Liang
39
68%
They are Equal
5
9%
 
Total votes : 57

Deng Ai, a match for Kongming?

Unread postby Wo Long » Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:22 pm

Would you consider Deng Ai equal or better to Kongming? Most people see Sima Yi and Kongming as the rivals and the "best". However, Jiang Wei nearly outwitted Kongming at Tianshui until Kongming used a trick to force him to try and save his mother. That shows that they were nearly equal. But then along comes Deng Ai who bested Jiang Wei in almost every battle and proved to be a superior tactitian. Do you think he could've been considered better than Kongming?
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:53 pm

I take it this is SGYY based and in milatry matters?

Jiang Wei had some sucess against Kongming but was tricked into surrender. His record was decent but I don't a few suprise sucess agaiinst Kongming warrents him being considered better as Zhuge Liang did well throughout his career while Jiang Wei had a mixed sucess.

Zhuge Liang faced and often defeated Wei in its prime, Deng Ai was fortunate to meet a Shu in very rapid decline. I honestly don't think that Deng Ai quite compares to Zhuge Liang who was considered the finest mind of his time.
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Unread postby Beauty Warrior Zhou » Sat Apr 08, 2006 5:24 pm

Historically, Deng Ai was equall with Zhuge Liang. In term of both administrative and millitary affairs. Only what I concern about Deng Ai only at the time he met his death. Jiang Wei and Zhong Hui captured and beheaded Deng Ai and his son after Deng Ai had succesfully captured Cheng Du. How could someone as smart as him got trapped in situation like that? :cry:
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:47 pm

Beauty Warrior Zhou wrote:Historically, Deng Ai was equall with Zhuge Liang. In term of both administrative and millitary affairs. Only what I concern about Deng Ai only at the time he met his death. Jiang Wei and Zhong Hui captured and beheaded Deng Ai and his son after Deng Ai had succesfully captured Cheng Du. How could someone as smart as him got trapped in situation like that? :cry:


I really disagree with this. While Deng Ai came up with some really good domestic ideas that is nothing compared to running an entire state. Militarlisticly i also disagree, Deng Ai never really faced the challenges that Zhuge Liang did militarily or even Jiang Wei. He was always on the better prepared side and against Jiang Wei led reinforcements never the primary force. Deng Ai was a really incredible general, however i would place him as a good domestic officer and around similar military ability to Jiang Wei, i mean he only defeated Jiang Wei when he outnumbered Jiang Wei.
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Unread postby GuoJia122 » Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:47 pm

My idea is that Zhuge Liang in his rise had Barely any troops and yet still ran from Cao Cao, Burned him out and escaped in Changban( sorry forgot the name..) But if you compare him to Deng Ai he is more superior because Zhuge Liang built Shu up to be thriving kingdom and to that even conquered the Man nations in the south, no easy feat. But Kongming did lose Wuzhangyuan but that doesn't matter since he died there and all his troops had escaped with relatively little causlties. But Deng Ai was smart and even outsmarted Jiang Wei, Zhuge Liang's own pupil. Deng Ai however died in the city he conquered and had a huge army that was already trained when he rose to battle so he is not as good as Zhuge Liang.
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:47 pm

Beauty Warrior Zhou wrote:Historically, Deng Ai was equall with Zhuge Liang. In term of both administrative and millitary affairs. Only what I concern about Deng Ai only at the time he met his death. Jiang Wei and Zhong Hui captured and beheaded Deng Ai and his son after Deng Ai had succesfully captured Cheng Du. How could someone as smart as him got trapped in situation like that? :cry:
i disagree... jiang wei formation were brilliant and well very organized when he fought deng ai with zhuge liang formation.. remember how deng ai couldnt break it? but some person from jingzhou help deng ai out? also zhuge liang predicted that deng ai would come down the mountain.... after deng ai read the broad he said what a man.. i would have serve him... too late now... something lkie that. if deng ai attack more and had more campign organized to take shu and i saw him organizing a offense maybe i will think about how great he is. although i do think he is more talented than jiang wei... either that or jiang wei just wanted to keep attacking wei for zhuge liang and liu bei's dreams. he in fact was reckless and lose alot of soldiers and provisions.
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Unread postby Xiahou Mao » Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:39 am

Shadowlink wrote:if deng ai attack more and had more campign organized to take shu and i saw him organizing a offense maybe i will think about how great he is.


But the thing is, Deng Di didn't attack more. He only attacked once, and in that attack (with Zhong Hui) he defeated Shu and forced their surrender. Shouldn't a sudden, decisive victory be more worthy than a long campaign, or several campaigns? And for those who say he avoided Jiang Wei, he did defeat Jiang Wei and pushed him back to Jian'ge, where Zhong Hui then held him in check to allow Deng Ai's lightning strike at Cheng Du.

Jiang Wei attacked many times, and failed each time. Zhuge Liang attacked five times, and failed each time. Deng Ai attacked once, and won. If the roles were reversed, would anything have been different? It's impossible to say. We never saw Zhuge Liang fighting from a position of strength. We did see Deng Ai fight against the odds, but that was against unworthy opposition in the form of Zhuge Zhan, who wasn't up to the task. If the roles were reversed, could Deng Ai have led Shu to success? Could Zhuge Liang have led Wei's defense? Who's to say?
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Unread postby Lexus Fiend » Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:24 am

I think that this is a very good idea for a thread, and I'm glad it was started. Had Deng Ai been born and lived 10 to 15 years before he actually did historically, his name would be praised so much more, and his name would be mentioned almost on par with those like Guan Yu. Some will look and say, "oh Kongming is WAY better than Deng Ai", without having any valuable historical resources to prove their theory, just because Zhuge Liang is far more popular than Deng Ai. When actual history is reviewed, and one takes a look at both of their lives and at what they accomplished and were capable of, it's a very good comparison. In fact, one could present a case that Deng Ai was the better of the two, but I myself can't make that statment as I feel there is not much between the two at all.
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Sun Apr 09, 2006 12:57 pm

Xiahou Mao wrote:
Shadowlink wrote:if deng ai attack more and had more campign organized to take shu and i saw him organizing a offense maybe i will think about how great he is.


But the thing is, Deng Di didn't attack more. He only attacked once, and in that attack (with Zhong Hui) he defeated Shu and forced their surrender. Shouldn't a sudden, decisive victory be more worthy than a long campaign, or several campaigns? And for those who say he avoided Jiang Wei, he did defeat Jiang Wei and pushed him back to Jian'ge, where Zhong Hui then held him in check to allow Deng Ai's lightning strike at Cheng Du.

Jiang Wei attacked many times, and failed each time. Zhuge Liang attacked five times, and failed each time. Deng Ai attacked once, and won. If the roles were reversed, would anything have been different? It's impossible to say. We never saw Zhuge Liang fighting from a position of strength. We did see Deng Ai fight against the odds, but that was against unworthy opposition in the form of Zhuge Zhan, who wasn't up to the task. If the roles were reversed, could Deng Ai have led Shu to success? Could Zhuge Liang have led Wei's defense? Who's to say?
Well then let look at Zhuge liang and jiang wei in defense? i think they did a good job at defending... Deng Ai was almost not successful because when he drop from the mountain his soldiers and supplies were spend, now if one of the shu officer did not surrender or liu chan wasnt a idiot and wait for jiang wei to come back Deng Ai would have been struck there. many people said that jiang wei too is good at defending maybe he shouldnt have spend Shu resource at attacking, he did hold out with zhuge liang once.. and zhuge liang hold out against cao cao many times. anyways i would like to say people like sima yi were scared of zhuge liang and didnt even bother to come out because they know they would lose that is why zhuge liang send sima yi a lady's cloth and sima yi still didnt come out. now i wish that shu general could have did that to deng ai and strave him to death :idea:
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Unread postby Zhilong » Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:03 pm

If ZL attacked Wei & Deng Ai was defending i think Deng Ai may be able to deal him some defeats.

If Deng Ai attacked Shu in the same manner and ZL was still alive, i daresay Deng Ai would likely have perished. What enabled Deng Ai to exact a surrender was the fact that no prior arrangements had been made for the defence due to Liu Shan being a tard. When ZL, Jiang Wan & Fei Yi were in office this was not so - when Wei attacked they were prepared.

While ZL may excel in the organisation of the army i think Deng Ai really excels in tactics. If they both teamed up i think they would be quite a duo!
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