Did Liu Bei lose his virtue at Yiling?

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Did Liu Bei lose his virtue at Yiling?

Unread postby Shadowlink » Thu Apr 06, 2006 9:17 pm

in the dw5 game Zuo Ci says that Liu Bei lose all his virtue and sometimes i can hear Sun Quan say some men of virtue Liu Bei is. anyways i know the game is wrong.. but im just so angry that they use that word some much... from what i am thinking... i think that liu bei did lose his virtue in kind of way however he preserve his honor and Loyalty. in a way his loyalty to his 2 sworn brothers, and his honor of recovering the land of jing =/
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Apr 07, 2006 8:01 am

Liu Bei acted in the best intrests of his kingdom, there is no shame in that. He had no real other good option other then to attack Wu's hold off Jing at that time
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Unread postby Wo Long » Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:26 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Liu Bei acted in the best intrests of his kingdom, there is no shame in that. He had no real other good option other then to attack Wu's hold off Jing at that time


Actually, it wasn't in the best interests of the kingdom. He marched on the Southland out of personal vengence. Even Sunzi says that battles out of anger are failed battles.

Though I agree that this was an important matter to Liu Bei and though he fought a losing battle, he didn't lose his virute.
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Unread postby Yuan Seth » Fri Apr 07, 2006 4:21 pm

There is nothing virtueous about revenge. It does not benefit the people and only creates hardship. Failing to listen to Kongming and everybody else demonstrates arrogance, not virtue. I believe it is safe to say Liu Bei possessed no virtue in the attack in Yiling.
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Unread postby Xi Tong » Fri Apr 07, 2006 4:46 pm

Hello everyone, this is my new name (Xi Tong) most of you know me as Shi Tong.

Anyway, that aside.

I dont think that Liu Bei lost his virtue at Yi Ling, though I do think it was a mistake.

Being torn between two sides is hard- remember that it was Liu Bei's duty bound mission to fight for his brother in SGYY. Therefore I would say that attacking Yi Ling probably doesn't represent the loss of virtue, though I wouldn't say that it's a completely virtuous act.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Fri Apr 07, 2006 5:28 pm

Actually the battle was quite necessary. Yi alone wasn't enough to defeat Wei Liu Bei needed Jing. Therefore the campaign was very necessary. Ignoring the attack from Wu would invite more attacks from Wu. Not attacking Wu would be the worst thing Liu Bei could do.
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Unread postby Sun Gongli » Fri Apr 07, 2006 5:54 pm

LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:Actually the battle was quite necessary. Yi alone wasn't enough to defeat Wei Liu Bei needed Jing. Therefore the campaign was very necessary. Ignoring the attack from Wu would invite more attacks from Wu. Not attacking Wu would be the worst thing Liu Bei could do.


I disagree. Even Zhuge Liang said that attacking Wu was pointless. And you're leaving out Han Zhong: this was the best way for Liu Bei to advance into the Central Plains.

I don't see the battle as a loss of virtue, but rather has a lapse in judgement. Even had Zhuge Liang gone with Liu Bei, I believe that the outcome would have been the same.
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Fri Apr 07, 2006 5:58 pm

i think 219 was shu at it's biggest land and pride.... guan yu could have attack luo yang or chang from the middle and liu bei could have attack from hanzhong to chang an and wu can attack hefei one last day when wei put zhang liao to fight guan yu... really i hate the battle of yiling because everytime im in that stage they keep making liu bei look lkie a bad person... and for dw5 they should have a better image of liu bei's anger. at least he didnt need zuo ci when zuo ci warn liu bei of his lose of virtue :P . was there this quote saying "the one who controls jingzhou can conquer all the land"? jingzhou was the center of all the attention

Edit:oops sorry this thread is about Liu Bei losing his virtue... i don;t think liu bei lose his virtue..
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:41 pm

Wo Long wrote:
Actually, it wasn't in the best interests of the kingdom. He marched on the Southland out of personal vengence. Even Sunzi says that battles out of anger are failed battles.

Though I agree that this was an important matter to Liu Bei and though he fought a losing battle, he didn't lose his virute.


He acted with caution after waiting two years. If he was that eager for revenge, he would have taken Huang Quan's advice. I'm sure the deaths of his brothers didn't help the "don't attack faction"

There is nothing virtueous about revenge. It does not benefit the people and only creates hardship

I don't think that Liu Bei's actions like taking Yi and making a third kingdom was in the best intrests of the people. If Liu Bei is going to fight for the Han, he needs not to have his kingdom crippled and treated like a puppet. Practical measures sometimes aid virtue better then ignosing such issues

He did listen to Kongming, he just didn't agree with the advice. Kongming isn't always right, Liu Bei felt that he was wrong in this instance, doesn't make him arrogant
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Unread postby Sun Gongli » Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:51 pm

It was a foolish battle. The Jing-Yi border is much easier to defend than the Jing-Yang border that Wu and Shu had previously shared because the river is so wide at that part that you can easily move a navy unimpeded from Yang into Jing or Jing into Yang. But going from Yi into Jing was a fool's errand; even Jin did not attempt this when they conquered Wu - they did send a force from the Yongan area, but much of the fighting was actually done in Jiao before the main invasion force attacked the capital.

Plus, Wu had gained the support of the people with the exception of the Wuling barbarians, who were bribed by Ma Liang anyway. And then when Shamoke was killed and Liu Bei was clearly going to lose, the Wuling barbarians killed Ma Liang and sent his head to Wu as a peace offering anyway. That shows that Wu had more support in Jing than most people expect.
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