Liu Bei's clan?

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Liu Bei's clan?

Unread postby vvill » Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:02 pm

So we know Cao Cao not only had Cao Ren, Cao Hong, Cao Zhen, Cao Xiu, etc. but the whole Xiahou clan to support him. And Sun Jian had his sons as well as many other clan members whose mentions are peppered throughout the history.

Liu Bei had... Liu Shan. And I suppose Guan Yu and Zhang Fei.

Did Liu Bei really have no clan members at all who could support and aid him? It seems like during the Three Kingdoms period, just about anyone with any power had at least a few family members they could rely on... an uncle, a nephew, a cousin, an in-law. I'm wondering whether Liu Bei deliberately excluded any potential clan members he had or did he really legitimately find himself so alone?

Thoughts?
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Unread postby GanNing » Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:45 pm

I'm not sure about historically, but in the book Liu Bei's family is never mentioned beyond Liu Feng and Liu Shan. The first he executed and the other brought about the fall of his empire.

So all in all maybe it was good that he didn't have more family to call on.
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Unread postby Ma Meng Han » Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:34 pm

The emperor is the closest thing Liu Bei has for a relative. :)
What more could he ask for?

He really doesn't need relatives when he's got the charisma to make everyone call him "brother".
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Unread postby Cao Xing » Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:55 pm

Ma Meng Han wrote:The emperor is the closest thing Liu Bei has for a relative. :)
What more could he ask for?

He really doesn't need relatives when he's got the charisma to make everyone call him "brother".


True, he got the people on his side and can win many people's hearts. But that can also count for Cao Cao and Sun Quan.
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Unread postby TheRealWolfman » Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:58 pm

Yes, Liu Bei could rely on anybody kinda, he relied on Cao Cao, they were aquantinces, maybe respected freinds (vibe from dw, which might be wrong 'course). If he wanted, he could have gotten anyones help.
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:50 am

Hold on a second, Liu Bei had Zhang Fei and Guan Yu's familes to aid him.

Does nobody remember Guan Ping, Zhang Bao, Guan Xing, Guan So, and the others? There was even a large battle with Zhang Bao and Guan Xing who said they had the same brotherhood ties that Liu Bei, Guan Yu and Zhang Fei had in the peach garden.

The Xia Hou family had Xia Hou Dun and his brother, but not really many others of strong ability like those two.

I guess for family members Liu Bei didn't really have anyone, but the families surrounding him (ala Xia Hou) were all strong and confident allies.
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Unread postby Sun Gongli » Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:11 am

Shi Tong wrote:Hold on a second, Liu Bei had Zhang Fei and Guan Yu's familes to aid him.

Does nobody remember Guan Ping, Zhang Bao, Guan Xing, Guan So, and the others? There was even a large battle with Zhang Bao and Guan Xing who said they had the same brotherhood ties that Liu Bei, Guan Yu and Zhang Fei had in the peach garden.

The Xia Hou family had Xia Hou Dun and his brother, but not really many others of strong ability like those two.

I guess for family members Liu Bei didn't really have anyone, but the families surrounding him (ala Xia Hou) were all strong and confident allies.


Speaking from a historical standpoint, Liu Bei didn't have much family support initially. Cao Cao had Cao Ren, Cao Hong, Xiahou Dun, and Xiahou Yuan supporting him from the start, as well as others like Xiahou En. Liu Bei had Guan Yu and Zhang Fei if you choose to accept the Peach Garden Oath as historical, and it would much later until he found Liu Feng or Guan Ping would come of age. Guan Suo didn't even exist, or if he did, he was female.

In contrast, the Sun family had a powerful family network, though not one nearly as prolific as the Cao and Xiahou clans. Wu Jing had powerful links to Yuan Shu and others, so he was no doubt an asset to Sun Jian. Likewise, the Zhou clan of Zhou Yu contributed greatly to Sun Ce's initial conquest. However, like Liu Bei's smaller familial network, it would take some time for all of the pieces to come together. Thus, Sun Jian and Liu Bei had to often rely on their own personal charisma rather than family status.
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:24 am

Well, the initial question wasn't about weather or not Liu Bei had clan members and family ties at the beginning of the novel, the question was weather or not he had anyone, and my argument was that he did.

Surely it's obvious that these people came later in his life (Zhang Bao, Guan Xing, Guan Ping etc), that's probably why it was easier later on for Liu Bei when he had more allies.

Liu Bei got his following through popular support instead of family ties and it probably helped to have the emperor's blessing.

Though there isn't any "historical" evidence, this thread doesn't actually say that it's historical, so I included Guan Suo. I also included Zhang Fei and Guan Yu because weather or not they historically took a peach garden oath, they certainly were on Liu Bei's side and never (with excepetion of Guan Yu and his capture by Cao) left his side to aid him.
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Unread postby Sun Gongli » Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:38 am

Shi Tong wrote:Well, the initial question wasn't about weather or not Liu Bei had clan members and family ties at the beginning of the novel, the question was weather or not he had anyone, and my argument was that he did.

Surely it's obvious that these people came later in his life (Zhang Bao, Guan Xing, Guan Ping etc), that's probably why it was easier later on for Liu Bei when he had more allies.

Liu Bei got his following through popular support instead of family ties and it probably helped to have the emperor's blessing.

Though there isn't any "historical" evidence, this thread doesn't actually say that it's historical, so I included Guan Suo. I also included Zhang Fei and Guan Yu because weather or not they historically took a peach garden oath, they certainly were on Liu Bei's side and never (with excepetion of Guan Yu and his capture by Cao) left his side to aid him.


I tend to speak from a historical standpoint because if not for history, there would be no novel, so anything that happened in history would have to be reflected or at least impact the novel.
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Unread postby Dyosolevimerix » Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:57 am

I'm an imbecile, feel free to ignore me. Liu Biao and Liu Zhang? He served under Liu Biao for a while, but they weren't THAT close. If Liu bei had any close/strong family ties, I don't think he would run from Cao Cao and seek help from Wu.
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