Who was Yuan Shao's best?

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Which of these were more valuable?

Yan Liang & Wen Chou
9
25%
Tian Feng & Ju Shou
21
58%
Guo Tu, Shen Pei & Peng Ji
2
6%
Other(s)?
4
11%
 
Total votes : 36

Who was Yuan Shao's best?

Unread postby Mao Zonggang » Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:07 am

Generals first, loyal advisors second and jealous slandering advisors last. (smart as they may be)

Things would have worked out better if they could have combined their talents to work together, but Yuan Shao was no leader so quarreling it is. :roll:
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Unread postby Sun Gongli » Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:25 pm

Tian Feng and Ju Shou could have guided Yuan Shao to reunification if he'd listened to them. Yan Liang and Wen Chou were just his grunts; Shen Pei is the only one on the third option worth his weight in salt.
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Unread postby SixWingGryffin » Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:32 pm

I think he had some good subordinates (Qu Yi, Guo Yuan, and Gao lan, to name a few) who could have been a great boon had they served longer.
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Unread postby Lexus Fiend » Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:17 am

Out of this list, it is unquestionably Tian Feng and Ju Shou. However, Shen Pei is no slouch himself and is often underrated, IMO. Yuan Shao had many talented men serving under him but because of his foolish decision making, they didn't have their chance to shine. Good thing Zhang He submitted to Cao Cao, otherwise I don't think anyone would be talking about him today at all.
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Unread postby Xiahou Jia » Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:14 pm

Correct me if i'm wrong but Xun Yu, Guo Jia, Zhao Yun, Zhang He and even Lu Bu (not sure if he was a vassal or only a guest general) were all serving Yuan Shao for some time. I consider them more valuable then people mentioned in the vote poll.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:31 pm

Tian Feng and Ju Shou's advice would have seen Yuan Shao win, I can't remember them offering bad advice. Such advisors are more valuble then generals like Yan Liang
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Unread postby Yuan Seth » Tue Apr 04, 2006 4:53 pm

Tian Feng possessed great foresight along with Ju Shou, and I strongly believe that Yuan Shao would have unified the north if he took Tian Feng's advice on numerous affairs. Remember Tian Feng's advice on Guan Du and Ju Shou's advice on how to unify the land.

Yan Liang and Wen Chou were not just grunts, but leaders on the battlefield that helped lead Yuan Shao's forces to victory in the north. Having two generals, with unmatched power, leading the army can add quite the necessary sting to Yuan Shao's war machine.

Putting aside their desires for personal advancement, Guo Tu and Feng Ji were notable officials and advisors as well.

However, I must disagree with Mao Zonggang in your last statement:
"..... but Yuan Shao was no leader so quarreling it is. "

Yuan Shao was a great leader who ruled with integrity and justice. His only downfall was being torn between his various advisors. Keep in mind his illustrious career serving the Han Dynasty and his decending from a long lineage of high lords and officials. Had he not been a leader, how could have have unified the provinces of Ji, Qing, Bing and You? How could he not have conquered the bandits of Bing and the White Horse General, Gongsun Zan? He also achieved one of the highest victories in warfare - victory without battle - when he took control of Ye.

Next time, I advise you think before you speak about a man you must know little about. For good taste, below are the site's links to Yuan Shao's biographies.

http://www.kongming.net/novel/kma/yuanshao.php
http://www.kongming.net/novel/sgz/yuanshao.php
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Unread postby brigadier liao hua » Sun Apr 16, 2006 5:21 pm

i didn't realize that Shen Pei was sladering or jealous.

Anyway ju shou was problabley his best.
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Unread postby Meng You » Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:29 pm

On a battlefield point of view, I'd choose Wen Chou and Yan Liang. As stated above and contrary to popular belief, they were not mindless puppets but talented generals and leaders. Gao Lan(?) stands near them because of his ability to withstand forces at Bing(?)

Tian Feng and Ju Shou were definitly Yuan Shao's best assuming you count out Xun Yu and You. Yuan Shao's reputation is due to his rash actions at Guan Du and since it's one of the famous battles, people see Yuan Shao as incompetent.

Greedy and rash, yes, but not incompetent. Took Han Fu's land, routed Gongsun Zan, led the coalition against Dong Zhuo and had a 'Noble' status. I believe that Yuan Shao was just bad at thinking under pressure and his sons were...special...not to go into details.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:44 am

If Yuan Shao was any sort of leader at all (and not just sitting on family fame), why didn't he seize the opportunity and welcome the emperor? Sure, he disagreed with Emperor Xian being the emperor from the beginning, but supporting someone who's an emperor already has gotta be easier and more legit than forcing someone else (who doesn't want to) to be emperor? :roll:

Ju Shou was definitely the best---not only did he draw up political plans for Yuan Shao (though not accepted), he also had a good sense of how to run a battle (though he wasn't listened to, again). Has Tian Feng given battle advice, or did I just miss it? As for Shen Pei, he sure was loyal, but it's not that clear what he could have done... he was one of those who supported the youngest Yuan, Yuan Shang, and didn't do a great job guarded Ye, either. And the whole extermination of Xin Pi's family, what's up with that?
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