1. He murders Ding Yuan, and goes over to Dong Zhuo.
Now this, I confess, is pretty much inexcusable. His motive appears to be nothing more than desire for more glory, which may fly when jumping from lord to lord, but not from father to father.
2. He murders Dong Zhuo, arousing the ire of Dong's followers.
Many see this as proof of Lu Bu's treachery and stupidity. But remember that Li Jue and Guo Si were meant to be executed, and were without an army at this point. They only managed to retake the capital with men they raised, and such a manuever would be difficult for anyone to predict. As for Lu Bu, it is worth noting that the argument used to sway him was that Dong Zhuo's death was more or less necesarry for the survival of the Han, and his failure to act would be counted as far worse.
3. He serves under Yuan Shao among others, makes his way to Liu Bei, takes his city.
Ah, but only after Zhang Fei, who was against him from the start, began drinking and beat Lu Bu's father in law. Remember that Lu Bu kept Liu Bei's family safe during all this, and forgave Zhang Fei after, while Zhang repayed this by stealing Lu Bu's horses. Lu Bu took it upon himself to save Liu Bei from battle, not on the advice of one of his men, but by his lonesome. It was only after the many quarrels with Zhang that Liu fled, and immediately took up arms against Lu. Who then is the traitor?
Zhilong wrote:Many ppl changed lords at least once but what put Lu Bu above the rest is that he would kill his lord as well. This made him worse than ppl like Zhang Song, Fa Zheng etc.
Arousing the ire of Dong's followers was not the main crime here - it was the fact he personally killed his boss again and in the immediate aftermath he made gains. While the removal of Dong was kind of good for the Han, it's difficult to prove that was his main motive and he suddenly found it morally evil to aid him any further.
It is pretty damn obvious that taking Liu Bei's city was not just recourse for Zhang Fei beating his father in law. To even argue so just makes Lu Bu seem like a tard.
At this juncture he had nowhere to go and almost all the lords shunned and or wanted to kill him. Liu Bei gave him shelter. He takes his territory while he is away, that is pretty damn low.
Keeping Liu Bei's family safe? Umm hello he was the danger itself. It's like saying someone who had just robbed you of your company and possessions is morally upstanding guy cos they did not harm your family as well. Besides by not harming them he was able to get Liu Bei to quasi-sserve under him on his return - now that was mean.
Him saving Liu Bei was not a selfless deed. The benefits to him are explained. What made it worse was that he agreed with Yuan Shu to not interfere and took the bribes yet turned around and dishonoured his agreement.
He wronged Liu Bei and Liu Bei later took revenge once he could / when it was practical. I'm not saying Liu Bei never did any dishonourable things in his life but i think he had some just grievance in this case.
But on par with such men as Wei Yan, Zhong Hui, Cao Cao, among others. I don't argue that the continuation of the act after his death makes it okay, but it's hardly a crime unique to him.
each seems well enough motive on its own to do away with the fellow, combined they say to me that the murder of Dong Zhuo was not even a crime.
1. The "rescue" of Diao Chan
2. Prevention of any attempt by Dong on his life
3. Restoring the Han
True he stood to gain from it, yet I cannot see how banishing adrunken Zhang Fei would qualify Lu Bu as a tard.
Moreover, he offered to return the city upon Liu Bei's reappearance
Took and offered back and how is that any lower than beating innocent men in a drunken rage?
Besides, I never said 'morally upstanding', only that there is room between that and where people place Lu Bu at present. And yet it seems that such kindness was unequal to the task of gaining Liu Bei's service, since he readily hopped on the Ts'ao wagon once his famil was out of danger.
He took gifts that were promised to him, then backed Liu Bei on the words of a letter. I regret I cannot find any mention of a prior agreement to remain neutral, the only benefits explained are the rightful graciousness of Liu Bei and the ire of Yuan Shu, powerfully placed and with many men.
I would disagree, on count that he could have retaken his city without bloodshed.
How are any of these loyal?
1 After having an affair with his bosses concubine he would now kill him as well as steal his woman.
2 Was there any indication that killing Dong Zhou was the only choice open to him? Were there no other possibilities and was he in immediate danger?
3 His actions soon after spoke for themself. His dedication to the restoration of Han soon disipated when the Dong remnants arrived and he abandoned the emperor. Thereafter he resorted to warlordism.
I was referring to the excuse you mentioned: that Zhang Fei beating Lu Bu's father in law meant taking Liu Bei's territory was even remotely reasonable.
Oh please. He also said that all his life he loathed violence but loved to make peace.
Zhang Fei beating an innocent man is obviously wrong but not disloyal.
Lu Bu was given shelter when no one else would take him in. He then took his benefactor's territory at the slightest opportunity. Moreover, Lu Bu could have waited till Liu Bei returned an brought the matter to his attention. His actions betray his motives - the minute Chen Gong suggested he take the city he attacked.
1 Lu Bu's ploy did work in the short term. Then he allied with Yuan Shu against Liu Bei before switching sides yet again.
2 Showing minor kindness while also showing great treachery is really not worth mentioning.
From the novel:
Receiving this Lu Bu called in Chen Gong to whom he said, "I have just received gifts from Yuan Shu and a letter, with the intent of restraining me from helping Liu Bei.
He took the gifts and understood the bargain. By taking the gifts and thus consenting he betrayed Liu Bei. Then he realises saving Liu Bei will benefit him more and he betrays Yuan Shu - that was actually quite masterful.
Examine the trends in Lu Bu's actions throughout the novel and i think you will agree it is very unlikely that Lu Bu really meant to give him the city back. The stuff that comes out his mouth cannot be trusted either, like his "oh i shall serve u like a son to a father".
Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 10 guests
Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved