Liu Biao And Jing

[Yuan Benchu]

We all know Jing was one of the most contested areas throughout the whole three kingdoms saga, but for a long time, it lay at peace under Liu Biao. Over that time, Liu Biao had the troops, the officers but not the mind to conquer. He had the potential to unify the land, he could have easily taken the central plains on numerous occasions. He had capable advisors such as Han Song, Kuai Yi and Liang. Also officers like Cai Mao, Wen Pin, Huang Zhong and Gan Ning. What do you think of Biao and his force? How much potential did they have?

[Beauty Warrior Zhou]

We all know Jing was one of the most contested areas throughout the whole three kingdoms saga, but for a long time, it lay at peace under Liu Biao. Over that time, Liu Biao had the troops, the officers but not the mind to conquer. He had the potential to unify the land, he could have easily taken the central plains on numerous occasions. He had capable advisors such as Han Song, Kuai Yi and Liang. Also officers like Cai Mao, Wen Pin, Huang Zhong and Gan Ning. What do you think of Biao and his force? How much potential did they have?

No. Not a chance. He had had to deal with Sun family forces first, if he want to look toward central plains.

Yuan Shu also wasn't in amicable terms with him.

Furthermore he choosed Cao Cao as enemy while siding himself to Zhang Xiu.

So actually, Liu Biao had too many enemies were surrounded him, hence Jing wasn't lay at peace. And Liu Biao was lucky enough become able to survive till 208.

[Gabriel]

Liu Biao had good military commanders and advisors, but he wasn't a military man himself. I doubt he would've been able to put men in their proper places, even with Kuai Yue and Kuai Liang advising him. I also doubt that any of his men could compare to Cao Cao's in ability. So, in my opinion, an attack on the Central Plains, especially one on Cao Cao, would've ended in failure.

[Yuan Benchu]

Yes but just after Sun Ce died, Wu were in no state for war, he should've used that oppoturnity to attack northk, while Cao Cao was busy with Yuan Shao, and ally with Liu Bei.

[Gabriel]

Cao Cao could've left Yuan Shao to deal with Liu Biao. It's unlikely Yuan Shao would've followed consiering how bad he was getting spanked. He could've used that time to recover and regroup, and then continue from there. As for Liu Bei, what good would he've done? He had very few generals and soldiers. He didn't have Kongming either. It would've been in Liu Bei's best interest to stay with Yuan Shao, or join Cao Cao and plan for his future from there.

[Lexus Fiend]

We all know Jing was one of the most contested areas throughout the whole three kingdoms saga, but for a long time, it lay at peace under Liu Biao. Over that time, Liu Biao had the troops, the officers but not the mind to conquer. He had the potential to unify the land, he could have easily taken the central plains on numerous occasions. He had capable advisors such as Han Song, Kuai Yi and Liang. Also officers like Cai Mao, Wen Pin, Huang Zhong and Gan Ning. What do you think of Biao and his force? How much potential did they have?

I think that Liu Biao's force had a lot of potential, he had talented men under his wing, lots of resources, and a crucial position in the land. However I don't feel that at any point he and his forces were capable of unifying China at all. I don't rate the Kuai's very highly as strategists, although they were surely talented men. I don't think they were that good when it came to military affairs, and don't think they had the ability to guide a non-military leader like Liu Biao to many victories. Liu Biao was a good governor of the land, but not a good military leader.

[Kong Wen]

Yuan Benchu is right in that Liu Biao had a couple of chances for dominance, but his personality didn't allow for it. He was like Yuan Shao in that, if he was a bit of a different man, things could have gone differently. Remember that Liu Biao had a few good men in his service who haven't been mentioned yet: Xu Shu, Zhang Fei, Guan Yu, Zhao Yun, Liu Bei, Sun Qian, Mi Zhu, Guan Ping, etc. Additionally, Jing was a talent-filled land, so if he was a better ruler, he could probably have attracted the attention of Pang Tong and others (though not Zhuge Liang—he was reluctant enough to serve Liu Bei, so there's not much chance he would have served Liu Biao, even with Liu Bei as a subordinate).

Now, if we assume (for the purposes of this thread) that Liu Biao was a better commander and not just an arm-chair strategist (as Guo Jia called him), then he had a couple of chances to expand and pacify the land. With better leadership and better commanders, he would have had a better chance of taking over the Southland, or at least making significant inroads there. This also means he could have later recruited some traditionally-known Wu figures. When Cao Cao was locked in conflict with the Wuhuan in the desert, Liu Biao had a clear passage to the capital. Liu Bei suggested it, so even if Cao had some decent commanders at home to help Xun Yu... Zhang Fei, Guan Yu, and Zhao Yun would have made short work of them.

Now... holding on to the capital, with Cao's armies of the north against him, would be a different story. Could be hard, could be easier. Liu Biao would have seized the emperor at that point, and he was also a scion of the Liu house, so he would have had some justification for his actions. Liu Bei had the mandate of the girdle edict. Ma Teng in the west would have been quite pleased. We may have seen an alliance between Cao Cao's north and Sun Quan's south against the Han in the central plains and Jing, with supporters in Liu Zhang and Ma Teng.

[MarvelousLingTong!!!!!!]

We all know Jing was one of the most contested areas throughout the whole three kingdoms saga, but for a long time, it lay at peace under Liu Biao. Over that time, Liu Biao had the troops, the officers but not the mind to conquer. He had the potential to unify the land, he could have easily taken the central plains on numerous occasions. He had capable advisors such as Han Song, Kuai Yi and Liang. Also officers like Cai Mao, Wen Pin, Huang Zhong and Gan Ning. What do you think of Biao and his force? How much potential did they have?

I think that Liu Biao's force had a lot of potential, he had talented men under his wing, lots of resources, and a crucial position in the land. However I don't feel that at any point he and his forces were capable of unifying China at all. I don't rate the Kuai's very highly as strategists, although they were surely talented men. I don't think they were that good when it came to military affairs, and don't think they had the ability to guide a non-military leader like Liu Biao to many victories. Liu Biao was a good governor of the land, but not a good military leader.

Now I'm not sure how good militarily Kuai Liang and Kuai Yue were, but did't Cao Cao say something about how he would rather have Kuai Yue than the whole province of Jing. That could have just happened in the novel I'm not really sure.

[LiuBeiwasGreat]

Liu Biao could have easily taken the central plains if he wanted to. He did quite well for someone who really wasn't extreemly impressive militarily. The fact that he was able to keep his borders secure without even a large army (i mean that if he really wanted to he could have doubled his army size if he really wanted to recruit everyone he could have) while losing some minor battles to Sun Ce and then to Quan they really didn't have the resources at the time to actually take and hold any of his territory and he was managing to hold off Cao Cao to the north. If he increased the size of his army by about 50 or so thousand men he could have easily taken the capital while Cao Cao was securing the northern lands. Then all he would need to do is drive Cao Cao into the Yuan forces. He could have convinced Ma Teng to desert Cao Cao and join him and at this point Cao Cao would be in a very dangerous position.

[Shi Tong]

Of course, the thing about Liu Biao is that he didn't really have the potential himself to become a conquering leader. Liu Biao was too old and without the motivation to help himself to the capital.

That said, if someone like Liu Bei had started in Jing with the officers he met to begin with (Guan Yu and Zhang Fei) and had the advisers and quality of generals in Jing from Liu Biao's forces, then I think that Liu Bei at that time may have had a very good chance at beating everyone to the capital.