Yuan Shao's Force

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Unread postby MarvelousLingTong!!!!!! » Fri Dec 23, 2005 1:35 am

Yuan Benchu wrote:Wasn't that Tian Feng that was executed? Ju Shou was killed I think while trying to escape from Cao Cao. After Cao Cao offered Ju Shou the chance to serve under him.


Tian Feng commited suicide I think at least in the novel he did, Ju Shou was offered a chance to serve Cao Cao, but he died trying to escape.
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Unread postby Beauty Warrior Zhou » Sat Dec 24, 2005 12:36 pm

LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:The critiques that Xun Yu and Guo Jia give to Cao Cao about Yuan Shao's people is actually pretty off. Yuan Shao had some of the most talented people in his service at the time


Many said they was talented, but was unproven. However, many also said they wan't such tallented (at least, Xun Yu and Guo Jia said that). I think 50-50. LiuBeiwasGreat, if you want to give these officers some more credit, why you don't include sort of their actions that can prove they was really talented. Otherwise, I still rate them as decent at best, maybe because I didn't find yet about their action. I always open my mind for any changes.

LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:and if he listened to the right people then Cao Cao would have been defeated quite easily. Also Yuan Shao had some of the most loyal people compared to forces that lost. The majorty of his people (usually the most talented) chose to die rather then surrender to Cao Cao. Cao Cao got some decent people from Yuan Shao like Zhang He but Shao's best people either died fighting or had to be executed.


Zhang He advise was the best idea to avoid defeated, while He urged Shao to send some reinforcement to Wuchao. Yet you rate He as decent. Another good idea was to form alliance with Cao Cao while Shao was in battle against Gongshun Zan earlier. I think Shen Pei and Tian Feng came with that idea (I maybe wrong).
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Sat Dec 24, 2005 2:46 pm

I never claimed that Zhang He was "decent" i think he was a very talented general. You will notice that i said usually the most talented not all the most talented people. I also think that Tian Feng and Ju Shu were even more intelligent then Xun Yu. Read Yuan Shao's bio and look at Ju Shu and Tian Feng's advice. If he had listened to them he would have plowed right through Cao Cao. Hell if he had listened and attacked when Liu Bei took over Xu then Cao Cao would have been caught in a pincer it was Tian Feng i believe that gave the advice to defeat Gongsun Zan. (still took Cao Cao helping out a few times for them to defeat him Lu Bu as well in defeating Gongsun Zan's ally)

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Unread postby Sima Hui » Sat Dec 24, 2005 11:57 pm

Beauty Warrior Zhou wrote:Another good idea was to form alliance with Cao Cao while Shao was in battle against Gongshun Zan earlier. I think Shen Pei and Tian Feng came with that idea (I maybe wrong).


According to my sources, it is unknown who proposed the idea to Cao Cao, but Xun Yu and Guo Jia advised Cao that an alliance would be in his best interests.

LiuBeiwasGreat: Tian Feng's plan was far from certain. Cao Cao was not so foolish as to leave his defences completely deserted. Garrisons at Baima and other forts could have reported to Xuchang and in turn to Cao Cao. Cao could simply have turned back and prepared for the assault. Although the battle would be very difficult, it was not necessarily a certain victory for the Yuan Shao army.
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Unread postby Beauty Warrior Zhou » Sun Dec 25, 2005 3:09 pm

LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:I never claimed that Zhang He was "decent" i think he was a very talented general. You will notice that i said usually the most talented not all the most talented people.


Yet, you said "some decent people from Yuan Shao like Zhang He"
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Unread postby Yuan Benchu » Sun Dec 25, 2005 7:16 pm

If he's British I can understand the mis-understanding. Becuase we use decent as more than decent if you get my drift. So if someone says...
"I got a new pair of trainers!"
They reply to the above...
"Decent!"
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Unread postby Beauty Warrior Zhou » Mon Dec 26, 2005 2:21 pm

Yuan Benchu wrote:If he's British I can understand the mis-understanding. Becuase we use decent as more than decent if you get my drift. So if someone says...
"I got a new pair of trainers!"
They reply to the above...
"Decent!"


Well, if so, my mistake again. Sorry...
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