Yuan Shao's Force

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Unread postby Yuan Benchu » Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:23 pm

Yes, I'd say Gao Gan was a decent leader and was quite popualr with the fellow officers. I think he'd make a good support general.
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Unread postby Gal Jon » Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:17 pm

I can't help but feel Yuan Shao lacked that buzz officer. The young gun with proweress. Yes Yan Liang and Wen Chou were mighty officers, but if you look throughout the novel, the people who succeed are those who have incredible young powerhouse who rises to the occasion. Liu Bei has Yide, Guan and then Zhou Yun, Cao Cao had Dian Wei, Xu Chu, Xu Huang etc, Suns have Gan Ning, Taishi Ci, even Gongsun Zan has Zhou Yun for a while. However Benchu's officers don't seem to be fulfilling their potentials, Zhang He only flurished under Cao Cao.
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Is it me or does that sound more like a Zhang He saying!!
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Unread postby Yuan Benchu » Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:16 pm

True, Yan Liang and Wen Chou were reaching quite old ages, and there were few that could match their ability but beat them in age. Xin Pi went on to serve Wei right until Wu Zhang (probably even further). But he himself was really just a minor official. When Zilong briefly served under Benchu, had he stayed there, he might've performed some great things against Gongsun and Cao. But as it was, he didn't only leaving Gao Lan and Zhang He as the young talents. Gao Lan wasn't bad, he killed Liu Pi, and fought to an equal against Xu Zhu, but not much else. If he had the spark you describe, he would've done much more. It's the same with Ju Shou and Tian Feng, had they been younger and served longer they too might have done great things.
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Unread postby Elitemsh » Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:14 pm

Zhang He was actually instrumental historically in defeating Gongsun Zan. In the small time he served Yuan Shao, he had achieved a fair amount, it just isn't stated in the novel. So, clearly Yuan Shao did have a young and very capable general. Had he relied more on young and promising talents like Zhang He instead of foolhardy warriors like Yan Liang and Wen Chou, he may have lasted longer. In my opinion, Yuan Shao had all the talent he needed, he simply wasn't competent enough to use that talent.
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Unread postby Yuan Benchu » Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:19 pm

I think the reason he misused the talent under him was because he was constantly being fed advice from all directions. On one hand you had Guo Tu and Feng Ji, and on the other Ju Shou or perhaps Tian Feng. Now today we have the evidence to show us how good each person is, but how was Yuan Shao to know who to trust? Zhang He left with Gao Lan becuase of Guo Tu, not because of Yuan Shao.
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Unread postby Beauty Warrior Zhou » Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:56 pm

Yuan Benchu wrote:Well, he was a good warrior and leader, but lacked intelligence. He was also quite old at the time of Wu Chao, he served the Han and was one of the elite officers of (I forget which city, it's somehwre in the north.) along with Yuan Benchu.


Actually, I will said, that Yuan Shao was smart enough. From his earlier achievement he was the man who know the condition and situation and acted accordingly. His lack was in leadership. He was a decent leader but can't create an hamony in his own subordinates.
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Unread postby Yuan Benchu » Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:04 pm

Yuan Shao's officer was drunk, and Yuan Shao had no way of knowing that his largest supply depot was being overun. And anyway, are you on about Chun Yugiong or Benchu? Because your reply doesn't mention anything about the former, whom I was speaking about.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:11 pm

Yuan Benchu wrote:Yuan Shao's officer was drunk, and Yuan Shao had no way of knowing that his largest supply depot was being overun. And anyway, are you on about Chun Yugiong or Benchu? Because your reply doesn't mention anything about the former, whom I was speaking about.


Novel or history? In the novel, he gets warned of the risk and sends help while also ordering an attack on Cao Cao's camp. Quite a good idea that

History, I don't think the depot guy was drunk and might have done better if the reinforcments had not been sent.

Maybe is she was replying to the Ju Shou, advisor cliques post and quoted wrong bit?
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Unread postby Yuan Benchu » Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:26 pm

Quite possible. But anyhow, Yuan Shao I think would've perhaps done better if he'd kept Ju Shou along with Tian Feng is his staff. Imagine what would've happened if those two had recived the ranks instead of Guo Tu and Feng Ji? I think it would've been sure as hell harder for Cao Cao. Ju Shou could handle domestic concerns while Tian Feng had things on the battlefield, along with the help of Shen Pei. Maybe Tian and Ju were no matches for Xun Yu and Guo Jia, but still might've found a way through their schemes.
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Unread postby Elitemsh » Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:23 am

This is just an idea. Going by the novel, I believe Ju Shou was the one who insulted Yan Liang and Wen Chou. These two generals were probably very popular in the Yuan force, so if Yuan Shao had followed Ju Shou's advice then he would be neglecting his veteran commanders and hence rebellions or a significant drop in morale may have occurred and consequently defeat.
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