Yuan Shao's Force

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Yuan Shao's Force

Unread postby Yuan Benchu » Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:42 pm

I think that alot of people just imagine Yan Liang, Wen Chou, Zhang He and Tian Feng when they think of Yuan Shao's army. But weren't there alot more talented men? Gao Lan is one, he fought against the mighty Xu Zhu and got to a draw, it was because of Guo Tu that he defected to Cao Cao. Shen Pei also, wise and a good leader, he fought well against Cao Cao. Other good advisors are Ju Shou, Feng Ji and Xin Pi (who later served Cao). What about his sons? Shang, Tan and Xi? Were any of those three any good at all?
Last edited by Yuan Benchu on Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby kvn_m » Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:55 pm

I think the sons are incompetent. It's in the blood! :D
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:57 pm

Yuan Shao was not too bad a commander till the end, I think he was also somewhat unlucky

The advisors listed where pretty good though only Ju Shou and Tian Feng are perhaps a match for Cao Cao's men but how about Chengyu Qiong? Said to have been a good leader, he died fighting Cao Cao at Wu Chao
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Unread postby Yuan Benchu » Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:00 pm

Well, he was a good warrior and leader, but lacked intelligence. He was also quite old at the time of Wu Chao, he served the Han and was one of the elite officers of (I forget which city, it's somehwre in the north.) along with Yuan Benchu.
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Unread postby Walker » Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:23 pm

Yuan Shao suffered from not wanting to hear the truth that perhaps there was a better idea than the one he had at the moment. Now, realistically, no one likes that much, but he went around jailing and beheading people for being smarter than he was. If he had been more understanding, he most likely would have won the battle of Guan Du instead of MengDe.
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Unread postby Yuan Benchu » Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:43 pm

You've got to understand that, while Ju Shou and Tian Feng were advising against attacking Cao Cao, Shen Pei and Guo Tu were saying to attack him. Guo Tu proved to be a nadty peice of work, eventually making Yuan Shao very distrustful of Ju Shou, Shao's best advisor after Tian Feng had gone. Feng Ji also slandered Tian Feng's name, effectivly removing his from power ultimatly. And before long, Feng Ji and Guo Tu were in charge. Shen Pei although perhaps wrong in suggesting yo attack Cao Cao, still stayed truthful and honest. Now, do you not think Benchu would've been at least a little confused about who to believe?
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:08 pm

Yuan Shang wasn't too bad. He won a couple of duels after all, and the mere fact that he was willing to fight them says something.

If Yuan Shao actually had some leadership ability and could have kept his forces in order (i.e. not alienating all of his advisers), he probably also would have had a lot more talent that we just don't know about. The north was one heck of a big area, and there was bound to be a lot of undiscovered talent.
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Unread postby Cao Cao's Guardian » Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:13 pm

I'm with you on that one, Yuan Benchu, these political intrigues tend to upset a force's chain of command and the effectiveness of its leaders, so it's natural that the advisors under Yuan Shao were leading causes of his loss.
Admittedly, the guy had flaws, and it seems to be his arrogance (it's too strong a word, but I can't think of anything else to substitute it with) that rendered him unable to take complete advantage of a situation (plus his indecisiveness), which didn't help when he was fighting against the might of Cao Cao.
The story of Yuan Shao is quite a sad one, since talented men get killed, fighting in vain, good advisors are dispatched and Yuan Shao's family isn't the most capable bunch of people. As for the man himself, his loss didn't come about entirely because of his mistakes and flaws. He was just in a difficult situation, and when luck didn't favour him (plus Cao Cao's strength & officers, and the confusing advice of the advisors), he couldn't surpass that which was required for a man of his status to survive. I really like Yuan Shao, he's a great character, but it's a pity he really didn't get too far.

Edit: Clarity
Last edited by Cao Cao's Guardian on Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Yuan Benchu » Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:14 pm

He did listen to his advisors, just the wrong ones. The fact that he couldn't see that people like Ju Shou and Tian Feng were ten times more talented than people like Feng Ji and Guo Tu shows his failure as a leader.
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Unread postby Sam » Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:26 pm

Kong Wen wrote:Yuan Shang wasn't too bad. He won a couple of duels after all, and the mere fact that he was willing to fight them says something.


Indeed. He killed Shi Huan, who wasn't a bad officer at all, and he was always said to be the most talented of Yuan Shao's sons.

Gao Gan was quite a talented officer. He defeated Li Dian, Yue Jin and Zhang Yan at Huguan Pass, and was only defeated himself when Cao Cao marched onto Bingzhou. There's a number of other note-worthy, talented officers who resided in the north, and Yuan Shao's forces certainly weren't without merit.
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