Liu Bei: Insane after the fall of Jing?

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Liu Bei: Insane after the fall of Jing?

Unread postby Sima Hui » Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:55 am

As we all know, before Guan Yu's death, Liu Bei is a relatively happy-go-lucky guy who rarely imprisons or executes people. When he does, it's with good reason though. Afterwards though, Liu Bei slowly seems to descend into incomprehensible madness. Qin Mi was imprisoned and nearly executed, Zhuge Jin nearly beheaded, Cui Yu, the Wu commander, beheaded, Mi Fang cut up by him personally, even Zhuge Liang and Zhao Yun's advice ignored.

So, did Liu Bei go almost insane after the fall of Guan Yu, or was he just an almost psychopathically angry man?
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Unread postby Gal Jon » Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:16 pm

I think the killing of Guan Yu put him over the edge. I still think that the only person with a calming influence on Bei was Guan Yu. Zhuge Liang was a stratergist, the one he would turn to if he had a problem, but if he was determined to do something, it was only Guan who could say no.
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Unread postby Cao Cao's Guardian » Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:47 pm

The evidence certainly points towards a quick descent into psychotism, which, considering the circumstances, doesn't come as too much of a surprise.
With all the villainy of Cao Cao (if you call it that) and restoration of the Han (real motives pending until further enquiry), Liu Bei was the goody-goody nice guy who didn't execute people. However, with the loss of his oath-brothers, the two bestest buddies who were with him from day 1 (or so), it's understandable that he'd be a little upset. Perhaps the shock tipped his mind over, and considering Shu was always under threat, he really didn't need to lose Guan Yu.
I also think it was the beard. Liu Bei missed Guan Yu's beard more than anything else :D
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Unread postby Walker » Sat Dec 03, 2005 7:13 pm

Liu Bei was mildly insane before the death of his brothers. He was trying to restart a broken dynasty. When an emperors army needs help to put down a rebellion, and get's taken over by a corpulent jerk-off with only two officers of note,(Lu Bu and Hua Xiong) it's fairly close to it's demise.

But it would seem he truly slid off the deep end when his brothers died. Can't blame him, once his brother's died, the whole Shu army was left to Zhuge Liang and Jiang Wei. Not that they were incompetent, but it was the start of a long slope downwards for Shu.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Dec 03, 2005 7:35 pm

Liu Bei was mildly insane before the death of his brothers. He was trying to restart a broken dynasty. When an emperors army needs help to put down a rebellion, and get's taken over by a corpulent jerk-off with only two officers of note,(Lu Bu and Hua Xiong) it's fairly close to it's demise.


What is broken might be fixed, it just needed reform and it had lasted for 400 or so years even when someone userped the crown midway through, why not survive this? The Prime Minister did have more officers of note then that like Li Ru, he had a large, well trained army with good officers and at the time, the capital had just seen a huge fight between two factions so was in some confusion

After Yi Ling, I think he becomes hardened and more openly ruthless then before but insane? No, I think he knew what he was doing, including rejecting the advice given to him. Perhaps also a bit hot tempered then before but I wouldn't say I can spot anything more in his actions
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Unread postby Cao Cao's Guardian » Sat Dec 03, 2005 8:31 pm

Hot-tempered!? Anyone remember back in DW3, that priceless FMV when Zhao Yun urges him to attack Cao Cao, and Liu Bei retorts in a more-angry-than-usual-tone 'Never! I will destroy Wu! Who cares about Cao Cao?'
Makes more sense, now, seeing that he went a bit cuckoo.

I agree with the resoration remark, it could've been restored if Dong Zhuo et al were knocked off their podium and steps taken to restore the Han. It was the likes of Cao Cao and Yuan Shao who didn't really think it was worth putting much effort in restoring order (well, unless they were the ones at the top), so you get the factions arising and all the fighting between them. Straying off the point here, plus I think I'm talking rubbish again.

I have to concede that Shu were a little short on inspirational generals after Guan Yu went, Zhuge wasn't exactly as indomitable (esp after the fun he had with the Nanman), and Jiang Wei was better at being a sneaky blighter and being a smart-arse, not a monster of a fighter like Guan Yu.

I still say it was the loss of the beard that put Liu Bei over the edge :D
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Unread postby iamnick » Sat Dec 03, 2005 8:32 pm

with only two officers of note,(Lu Bu and Hua Xiong)
Hua Xiong is of more note than Zhang Ji, Guo Si, Zhang Liao, Li Jue? :?
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Unread postby redlion » Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:13 pm

I wouldn't say Liu Bei went insane. He just had to step up and be the cruel, unusual, and destructive because he lost the people who did that. He had to attack Yi Ling because he had to take his honor, revenge, and land back. He executed people who most normally wouldn't(his adopted son Liu Feng), and he stopped listening to his advosors and generals because he had to strike back.
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Unread postby kvn_m » Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:08 am

probably. he got his own piece of mind back after he suffered from grave failures. yeesh.

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Unread postby Starscream » Sun Dec 04, 2005 4:26 am

I don't think he's insane but he just lost control that's all. All these while he had been listening to his advisors for military and civil matters but when it came to something personal, like the death of his sworn brother, he let loose of all rationality and decided to take matters into his own hands. Moreover, he prided himself as a veteran who had survived 30 years of warfare so why should he rely on Zhuge Liang to avenge Guan Yu?

The personality of Liu Bei consisted of a diplomatic, charismatic surface, but this concealed an ambitious and over-idealistic interior imo. Hence, with Guan Yu's death, he let out his "true" side and waged wars on Wu.
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