Without Guan Yu's Help, Cao Cao vs. Yuan Shao

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Without Guan Yu's Help, Cao Cao vs. Yuan Shao

Unread postby Waking Dragon » Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:43 am

"Zhang Liao persuaded Guan Yu to join Lord Cao when Guan Yu was separated from Liu Bei’s main force. In order to guard the life of his sisters, Guan Yu accepted Zhang Liao’s offer and served Lord Cao. In the service of Lord Cao, Guan Yu scored important victories against Yuan Shao."

If Guan Yu did not accept Zhang Liao's offer, do you think Cao Cao still would have taken out Yuan Shao without Guan Yu's help?
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Re: Without Guan Yu's help, Cao Cao vs. Yuan Shao.

Unread postby Sang » Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:00 am

Waking Dragon wrote:If Guan Yu did not accept Zhang Liao's offer, do you think Cao Cao still would have taken out Yuan Shao without Guan Yu's help?


Cao Cao will remove Guan Yu’s head. Guan Yu never achieve anything for Shu. Cao Cao will still defeat the likes of Yuan Shao. Even though, Yuan Shao has the advantage, he still didn’t listen to his advisors/strategists. Cao Cao has strong and experience generals on his side. Cao Cao listens to good advice, he should win this one. I don’t have the SGZ access, and so I don’t know who was struggling at the Battle of Guan Du.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:02 am

As far as SGZ is concerned Guan Yu while providing a valuable service in the killing of Yan Liang it wasn't something that would have cost Cao Cao the war if it didn't happen. Yan Liang would still have lost the only diffrence is that he might have survived the battle. SGZ basicly says that Cao Cao barely won the battle (even though most people figured that he would win) he was running out of food and soldiers were defecting to Yuan Shao (and some to Cao Cao) and like the book it was basicly the distruction of Yuan Shao's food supply that saved Cao Cao. Even though Cao Cao won several battles he was getting pushed back over and over again if the battle kept on going then Cao Cao would have lost.
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Unread postby Zell » Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:41 am

if the battle kept on going then Cao Cao would have lost.


I think Guan Yu made it a quicker defeat for Cao Cao so it helped, so if Guan Yu had not been there the battle would have been longer meaning Cao Caos defeat so i would say yes Yuan Shao may have won had Guan Yu not been there.
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Unread postby Gal Jon » Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:32 pm

I think Guan Yu was imortant mainly for morale. The fact that Cao was being invaded lowers his armies moral, and having the god of war with him lifts the troops
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Unread postby Baiko Arashi » Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:53 pm

Guan Yu helped...but cao cao won using tactics
eh, ill find something witty to put here later.

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Unread postby Lexus Fiend » Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:12 pm

Speaking historically, so Guan Yu actually did fight, defeat, and kill Yan Liang in battle? What of Wen Chou?

And in response to the initial question, I do think that Cao Cao's forces would have defeated Yuan Shao with or without Guan Yu.
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Unread postby MarvelousLingTong!!!!!! » Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:46 pm

Lexus Fiend wrote:Speaking historically, so Guan Yu actually did fight, defeat, and kill Yan Liang in battle? What of Wen Chou?

And in response to the initial question, I do think that Cao Cao's forces would have defeated Yuan Shao with or without Guan Yu.


Wen Chou was killed during an ambush by Cao Cao's forces not Guan Yu.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:13 pm

Yan Liang was taken along in an attack by Bai Ma but he wasn't in charge. Cao Cao sent some troops to another location to lure away part of Yuan Shao's army and it worked and Yan Liang was left alone to siege Bai Ma with 10,000 men. Then Cao Cao sent Guan Yu and Zhang Liao to attack Yan Liang. During the fighting Guan Yu broke through the battle lines and killed Yan Liang. After Yan Liang's death the siege was ended and the lower ranking officers of the army led the force back to Yuan Shao out of fear of Guan Yu (i mean the majors and lutenents those lower ranking officers i don't mean the generals)

Wen Chou was sent with a force with Liu Bei as his subordinate general. Cao Cao ambushed the force and Wen Chou was killed in the fighting. Liu Bei led the survivers back to Yuan Shao. Guan Yu was not involved in that battle.
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Unread postby Jordan » Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:53 pm

Wasn't Yue Jin the one who burned Yuan Shao's supplies at Wu Chao? If so then I think Cao Cao could still win because I consider that the turning point in the war between the Cao and Yuan clans. I think basically that yeah Cao Cao would still have beaten Shao to kingdom-come.
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