Cao Cao the Merciless

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Cao Cao the Merciless

Unread postby Waking Dragon » Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:49 am

"Ma Chao passed away at the age of forty seven. Before his death, he petitioned, “I used to have some two hundred members in my household but they were mostly killed by Meng De (Cao Cao), except for my younger cousin and follower Ma Dai. He is the only person left to continue the family line, hence I sincerely place him in your (Liu Bei) care and I will have no regrets.”

If only Ma Caho had not been given the title Bian Jiangjun yet and only if this kind of rivalry between Cao Cao and Ma Chao was not formed at Tong Pass with Han Sui's betrayal, many things would have been different. Ma Chao would have gone forthe after his supposed death and he would have shined just like Lu Bu. Ma Chao's family would have joined Liu Bei and would have formed an even stronger alliance. Cao Cao killed his family. Had he no mercy at all towards Ma Chao's family at any time anyways? To make them join or be left put was never Cao Cao's choice.
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Unread postby Cao Ah Man » Wed Nov 02, 2005 2:08 am

How could he? If you're going novel wise, Ma Teng was sworn to kill Cao Cao, the massacre of the Ma clan, while hardly admirable, was done purely in self defence.
If someone's out to kill you, what do you do? Hit them first. Besides, if he killed one, he'd have to kill the rest. I doubt that even if the circumstances were different, Chao would have ended up joining Shu anyways, be it that Cao Cao tromped him, or Zhuge Liang won him over,etc.
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Unread postby Waking Dragon » Wed Nov 02, 2005 4:46 am

Cao Ah Man wrote:How could he? If you're going novel wise, Ma Teng was sworn to kill Cao Cao, the massacre of the Ma clan, while hardly admirable, was done purely in self defence.
If someone's out to kill you, what do you do? Hit them first. Besides, if he killed one, he'd have to kill the rest. I doubt that even if the circumstances were different, Chao would have ended up joining Shu anyways, be it that Cao Cao tromped him, or Zhuge Liang won him over,etc.


This is all the after effects of confrontation and that sort of irrelevancy to the topic, I understand that Cao Cao had no choice in terms of Ma Chao, but why his family? Why so many members? What if Ma Chao never conflicted with Cao Cao in the first place? Many people would have still been alive in terms of Chao's family. In that case, Ma Chao would not be depressed or ill and die. He would be in good shape of a warrior just thriving to shine.
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Unread postby Lexus Fiend » Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:09 am

Waking Dragon wrote:
Cao Ah Man wrote:How could he? If you're going novel wise, Ma Teng was sworn to kill Cao Cao, the massacre of the Ma clan, while hardly admirable, was done purely in self defence.
If someone's out to kill you, what do you do? Hit them first. Besides, if he killed one, he'd have to kill the rest. I doubt that even if the circumstances were different, Chao would have ended up joining Shu anyways, be it that Cao Cao tromped him, or Zhuge Liang won him over,etc.


This is all the after effects of confrontation and that sort of irrelevancy to the topic, I understand that Cao Cao had no choice in terms of Ma Chao, but why his family? Why so many members? What if Ma Chao never conflicted with Cao Cao in the first place? Many people would have still been alive in terms of Chao's family. In that case, Ma Chao would not be depressed or ill and die. He would be in good shape of a warrior just thriving to shine.


I think that the previous points made by Cao Ah Man were very relevent to this topic. Also, I feel you're getting a bit off-topic with the "what if" scenario of Ma Chao never having conflict with Cao Cao. I personally don't see how that could have been avoided. Cao Cao is no different from many other rulers of this era, he was ruthless and took no chances (in terms of personal safety in THIS context).

I'm not trying to be rude, but I don't see the actual point you are trying to make here.
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Unread postby Blackest Waltz » Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:14 am

I agree with the previous points. Ma Teng had sworn an oath with other officers to do away with Cao Cao and his rule. Was Cao going to just sit by and idly let that happen?
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:10 am

Did Cao Cao have to execute the Ma clan? Yes, once he started with Ma Teng to protect himself, it was a case of any Ma clan may well look to kill him. Besides one of Ma Chao's wives where killed by local officals revolting or something like that so Cao Cao can't be blamed for killing all of them
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Unread postby Terranigma Freak » Wed Nov 02, 2005 3:38 pm

Revolution is a serious crime folks. You rebel, you're entire family is killed, no exceptions.
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Unread postby Waking Dragon » Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:11 pm

I'm not trying to be rude, but I don't see the actual point you are trying to make here.


Hehe, you are right..because there is no point to be made, just a what if. Just makes you think you know? I'm wondering more on the side of if Cao Cao had never confronted Ma Chao in the first place. Shu would be a larger and more powerful force if Ma Chao and his family I mean his whole army were alive and with Shu united, right? Just a thought, sorry for the confusion.
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Unread postby REMIX » Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:25 pm

I do think that killing the entire Ma Clan is unnecessary. Though it is correct that at that time, when someone revolts the entire family is executed, it was not right to do it on the Ma clan as they are an exception. They have served the royal family for so long and were very loyal and their revolt was supposedley from the emperor's best interest. In that period of time, if a loyal servant has revolted, then only he would be executed and the familes spared. Similar to Chen Gong, he was a close friend of Cao and though he revolted, he was executed and his family spared and I wonder why has this been done to Chen Gong though it has not with the Ma Clan. Cao Cao also should not have forged the note and if he were to kill the entire family of the Ma Clan he should have got the emperor's consent first by informing him of their crimes after their arrest. This is because Cao Cao supposedley did this on behalf of the emperor and if he did, he should have atleast informed the emperor of their actions.
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Unread postby Mistelten » Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:06 pm

You want Merciless, just go to the killing of Tao Qian's clan. The Ma clan was a sworn enemy because of their leader. Tao Qian's was not.
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