Xiahou Yuan and Cao Cao

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Xiahou Yuan and Cao Cao

Unread postby Gal Jon » Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:46 pm

We all know that Dun and Cao had a close relationship, but what I find interesting in the novel and Bios is the way Yuan and Caos relationship is portrayed. When Yuan is first introduced in the novel, he is just said that he was a clansman of Xiahou Duns, for criest sake his style isn't even named. Then throughout the novel, there is no particular interaction between the two of them.
However, in real life (bios) the two seem quite close. He is given loads of important missions, and seems to be closer to Cao than Dun.
What does everyone think of this:
Zhang Liao-----------"Oh its more than we could have asked for"

Is it me or does that sound more like a Zhang He saying!!
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Unread postby Terranigma Freak » Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:08 pm

Xiahou Dun and Xiahou Yuan are his brothers, while Cao Ren and Cao Hong are his cousins as I recall. Plus, Cao Cao cried when he heard Xiahou Yuan was killed in battle.

Also, I want to point something out, in china, cousins are also considered to be brothers and sisters. When you call someone your cousin, it means they're the kids on the female side of the family. My father has a brother and a sister, I call his sister's children my cousins while his brother's kids are also considered my brothers and sisters.
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Unread postby Cao Chao » Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:25 pm

Xiahou Dun and Xiahou Yuan are cousins to each other, as well as to Cao Cao. Mengde was originally a member of the Xiahou family. His father, named Xiahou Song, was adopted by the eunuch, Cao Teng, and joined the Cao family, becoming Cao Song in the process.

The two Xiahous are Cao Cao's cousins from the Xiahou clan, while Zilian and Zixiao are cousins from the Cao family.

It is interesting to note that the Xiahou family descended from one of Liu Bang's chief generals, the redoubtable Xiahou Ying, while the Cao family were descended from the less famous Cao Can.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Sat Oct 29, 2005 10:09 pm

Cao Song was always Cao Song. It was Cao Song's father who was a Xiahou.
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Unread postby Liu Yuante » Sun Oct 30, 2005 4:38 am

LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:Cao Song was always Cao Song. It was Cao Song's father who was a Xiahou.


Actually, this is untrue according to Cao Cao's SGZ bio.

Chen Shou wrote: wrote:Teng’s adopted son Song succeeded him, achieving the high office of Grand Commandant, but there were none able to discover the circumstances of his birth.3 Cao Song begot the Great Ancestor.

The Record of Cao Man, composed by a man of Wu, and Guo Ban's Shi Yu both present the following: Song was a son of the Xiahou clan and was the younger brother of Xiahou Dun’s father. Therefore the Great Ancestor was of the same clan as Dun, as their fathers were brothers.


Song was Teng's adopted son, so that is clearly where the change in family took place.

EDIT: I may have misunderstood you. If you meant that Cao Song was adopted at a young age and thus was "always" a Cao, and by Cao Song's father you mean his biological father, then your statement is (probably) correct. "Probably" because we don't know at what age Song was adopted.

More relevant to the actual topic, I have also noticed the prominent role Xiahou Yuan played. If someone was rebelling or attempting to rebel, Xiahou Yuan was seemingly Cao Cao's first choice to go stomp out the insurrection. Clearly he trusted him a great deal. Xiahou Dun, on the other hand, was reputed to be more educated in the clasics than many other military men and I believe he eventually spent more time in government than on the battlefield. From what I've done so far, he is mentioned sparingly in Cao Cao's bio, in the early days of the turbulence created by Dong Zhuo and later as a confidant of Cao Cao. I think Dun was more of a close friend than Yuan, but Yuan was the more accomplished and trusted military commander.

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Unread postby Gal Jon » Sun Oct 30, 2005 5:26 pm

Maybe I worded this badly butthis thread isn't about their relationship too each other. Its about their freindship and trust in one and other. I get the feeling that Yuan seems to be a bit outcast by Cao Cao, and isn't close to him, but then Cao Cao goes and treets him realy well. I wanted to know about what you thought of thetwos working freinship, not about their descendency.
Zhang Liao-----------"Oh its more than we could have asked for"

Is it me or does that sound more like a Zhang He saying!!
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Unread postby Terranigma Freak » Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:38 pm

Well, Huang Zhong made Cao Cao cry, so there is some description of their relationship. They're related and Cao Cao was very sad when Xiahou Yuan died.
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Unread postby Zhao Yun '87 » Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:48 am

He could just be sad that he lost a fine general though.
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Unread postby Terranigma Freak » Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:34 pm

True, but that fine general also happens to be family, so it qualifies a bit...
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Unread postby Starscream » Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:12 am

On a separate note, I'm not sure what Cao Cao or other Caos would have felt if he knew that Xiahou Yuan's daughter married Zhang Fei. Was Cao Cao still alive then when that took place? :roll:
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