Liu Shan: capable or idiot?

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Re: Liu Shan, capable or idiot?

Unread postby Sima Hui » Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:49 pm

Beauty Warrior Zhou wrote:I dont want to say that Sun Haowas better than Liu Shan but at least Sun Hao fight till the end. Wu became worst in both domestic and militery under Sun Hao because of internal affair among Sun clan which was triggered by Sun Chen and Sun Jun. It just like the ancient Macedonian-Greece and Roman empires was ruined soon because of the death of their great leader and their heirs just killing each other. In Shu, there was no one who intend to dethhrone Liu Shan but still his country became poor and weak. Who has to blamed? Liu Shan as the leader. His surrendering to Jin can't cover his own mistakes, otherwise it shown what a coward man he was. He couldn't bearly to take responsible and risk as a leader to became punished in jail or even executed. He just want to continue his luxury lifestyle and ignored everything. In this case I should say that Sun Hao is better than this damned man.


There was no guarantee that Liu Shan would be spared execution just because he surrendered. He barely escaped execution by Sima Zhao.

How can you say one as a good leader if you doubted your suboordinate?
If you as a leader don't believe that your subordinate can't acccomplish a task, then he ratherly cant because you won't to take risk to support him in your maximum ability cause you affraid to lost more. Under Zhuge Liang, Jiang Wei has proved himself as a capable and loyal officer. It's not a reason that Jiang Wei was a deffected officer or not, we all know that Gan Ning, Thaishi Ci, Pang De, Zhang He, etc, etc were also deffected officers. But they as Jiang Wei has determined to whom their loyalty for. And their formed ruler treated them as they were.


I fully agree with you, but Jiang Wei's attacks, however well intentioned, were misguidedly futile. Also, there's a saying in China that if the liege mistrusts the man, the man must die. Bad idea in Jiang Wei's case, but it means that the vassal is not always right. Leaders have to know who to appoint for what task. That's why they are leaders. At least in normal situations. Liu Shan, apart from a couple of incidents, gave Jiang Wei his blessing on all campaigns and did little to intefere. Jiang Wei couldn't have asked for more.

Indeed. He became idiot because something hit his head when his father throwed him to ground after was saved by Zhao Yun in Chang Ban.:twisted:


There's no proof of that.

It's up to you if you want to say that this idiot was a smart one.
He was a fool and a coward, that's all I think on him. His surrendering proved all of it.
Wasn't that Ma Dai who dealt with Wei Yan by ZL's secret instruction before ZL death?


Maybe so, but Liu Shan's action saved the people of Shu from much misery. The same conclusion had been made by Liu Zhang fifty years earlier. Although the fall of Shu was tragic in my opinion, better to surrender and save lives than to lose tens of thousands of lives in a futile resistance.

There is noway to excused his surendering. Agreed, Wu was not as strong as before, I told you why but they still fighted. We can't predict what happen if Shu refused to surrender cause it didn't happen at all, right?


Chengdu could hold out for a number of years if they defended, but they couldn't possibly hope to repel Deng Ai's entrenched army, as they had a secure supply line all the way from Hanzhong. Guerilla attacks by civillians would be impossible as the land of Shu had suffered under Liu Shan's foolish rule.

1)Fight: we dont know what would happen, but at least Wei/Jin would still in difficult time by fighting both Shu and Wei.

2)Defend: All force/country should have its own deffence system. How you can say that there was noone left in defend while only Jiang Wei who went to attack? Do you want to say that Shu just only have Jiang Wei and Liu Chan left?

3)Flee: Why should he flee while he still could attack and defense?

4)Surrender: The most idiot and coward choice.


1) It's true that Ding Feng was advancing with an army towards Shu to try and relieve it, but suppose a Shu commander thought that they were trying to capture territory from the dying kingdom. They would be held up there, Liu Shan wouldn't be able to get a messenger through the siege to set right the confusion and no one would be able to relieve anyone. Besides, Deng Ai's army had very high morale from capturing most of Shu. If Zhuge Zhan couldn't repel Deng Ai, how could Liu Shan hope to do any better?

2) No one is saying that nobody was left behind to defend Shu, but there were no experienced commanders in Chengdu to mount a proper defence. Chengdu wouldn't stand very long without a knowledgable commander at its head.

3) As Dong Zhou said, he didn't have anywhere to flee. The Man tribes wouldn't help him and it would be disgraceful to surrender to Wu.

4) The dishonourable, but sane and sensible way. Liu Shan protects his people, Wei's armies are not damaged and peace is restored. Everybody wins.
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Unread postby Lafeel » Sun Oct 23, 2005 1:23 am

Ironically enough, while I am a lot like James in my disaproval of Liu Shan's rule, I agree with the points made here..

The Man were iffy allies, at best, running to Wu was not only difficult due to the siege, but also due to the distance involved.

Fighting was impossible, due to the fact that he had already spent his awailable forces in the attempt by Zhuge Zhan to stop Deng Ai's advance.

Defense was a tricky situation, as they had no real way to know for sure if they were going to be relieved.

All in all: he probably made the right choice, both for himself, and his people.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:22 am

I dont want to say that Sun Haowas better than Liu Shan but at least Sun Hao fight till the end


Your army collapsing and defecting, allowing Jin to walk into the capital and capture Sun Hao counts as fighting to the death?

Wu became worst in both domestic and militery under Sun Hao because of internal affair among Sun clan which was triggered by Sun Chen and Sun Jun.


Wu was in decline yes but Sun Hao managed to make things a whole lot worse. Like Liu Shan, a waste of talent, but even worse then Shan, just plain evil to the people.

In Shu, there was no one who intend to dethhrone Liu Shan but still his country became poor and weak. Who has to blamed? Liu Shan as the leader.


I agree, Liu Shan has a major share of the blame for Shu's collapse.

His surrendering to Jin can't cover his own mistakes, otherwise it shown what a coward man he was.


I never claimed it made up for it but at least he tried to save the people, losing his freedom and potentially his head.

He couldn't bearly to take responsible and risk as a leader to became punished in jail or even executed


Liu Shan could have been executed and he knew it, he risked his life by surrendering. He also had to be careful to not upset his new masters in case he got executed later

In this case I should say that Sun Hao is better than this damned man.


willing to throw away thousands of lives for a lost cuase is a good thing?

How can you say one as a good leader if you doubted your suboordinate?


Depends on the situation

If you as a leader don't believe that your subordinate can't acccomplish a task, then he ratherly cant because you won't to take risk to support him in your maximum ability cause you affraid to lost more.


the problem was Jiang Wei was the best Shu had and that is more an indication of Shu's failure to find talent then anything about Jiang Wei. Even with the support, Jiang Wei failed, Liu Shan can't be blamed for Jiang Wei having less troops, supplies then a Wei brimming with everything. Liu Shan can be blamed for the later internal problems and a seeming lack of talent coming through the ranks

Sima Hui makes an excellent point about vassals and leaders.

Under Zhuge Liang, Jiang Wei has proved himself as a capable


a capable general certainly but a commander? He proved himself decent at leading armies but lacked the politcal skill or the knowledge of when to rest and rebuild

and loyal officer


He defected to Shu, leaving his mother behind, for power. Going from a minor border general to a small army where his talents would shine. I sometimes feel that if Wei or Wu offered him a great rank then he would defect again.

Jiang Wei was a good general, an able man, a better CIC in the field then some people think but I can't say he proved his loyalty. I'm quite probably being horribly biased against him though

Gan Ning


I would have excuted him if he continued acting like a pirate. Gan Ning proved himself over time as a capable officer. Loyal? Perhaps to Sun Quan and the advantage they gave him, yes

Thaishi Ci


Thsi is probably only in the novel, but Sun Ce's men doubted Taschi Ci's loyalty till Ci returned as he promised. His lord was defeated and fled, Taschi Ci was free to pick a lord.

Pang De


He never defected. He served Ma Teng, Ma Chao and Zhang Lu loyally then when Zhang Lu surrendered, joined the winner Cao Cao. Loyalty was doubted but with the coffin stunt, won over Cao Cao's support. He also chose death when Guan Yu captured him

Zhang He


Zhang He feared for his life but proved his loyalty and ability many times, never complaining even when Sima Yi was placed in charge over him.

Indeed. He became idiot because something hit his head when his father throwed him to ground after was saved by Zhao Yun in Chang Ban.


I really doubt that was true

It's up to you if you want to say that this idiot was a smart one.


Perhaps but when he made descions, he seems to get them right and Zhuge Liang didn't have cuase to complain about amount of supplies. I am angry with him for wasting what he seems to have in the brain department for a life of luxary

He was a fool and a coward, that's all I think on him.


fool for listenting to Huang Hao perhaps.

His surrendering proved all of it.


Yes becuase Liu Shan could fight on, win and conquer Wei with ease in a joint attack with Wu. It wasn't like that if he had fought on, everyone would suffer, he would lose and too many die. Fighting a hoeless fight would make him a fool as there wasn't much of a moral point to stand for anymore

He considered the matter, sent out his only commanders to fight, then when they failed, surrendered.He was fool for allowing Huang Hao to gain control of court and for not building defences much earlier but hardly a coward.

Men of the 3kingdoms that surrendered: Zhang He, Zhang Xiu, Lu Bu, Liu Zhang, Guan Yu, Yan Yan and some others that escape me. Are they cowards and fool too?

Ma Chao and Han Sui tried to surrender to Wei but as Cao Cao rejected the surrender, I'm not sure it counts

Wasn't that Ma Dai who dealt with Wei Yan by ZL's secret instruction before ZL death?


Nope. Zhuge Liang ordered Yang Yi to retreat with the army, Jiang Wei taking rearguard. Wei Yan was to do as he pleased then Zhuge Liang died

Wei Yan and Yang Yi hated each other and so Wei Yan attacked Yang Yi during the retreat/burnt plank roads thus blocking the Shu retreat. Yang Yi and Wei Yan sent memorials to Liu Shan and Shan had to pick a side. Talking with commander Jiang Wan, he opted for Yang Yi's side

Wei Yan's excution was called for and Ma Dai acted on orders stemming from that. Yang Yi would later be exiled for some nasty comments with Liu Shan unhappy I belive that Yan's family had been excuted to the third degree maybe playing a part in Yang Yi's lack of promotion that cuased the comments.

Liu Shan also ordered that Wei Yan be remembered for the good he did and not his...sad end if memory serves me well

There is noway to excused his surendering


besides his saving many lives

Agreed, Wu was not as strong as before, I told you why but they still fighted


Only Jin being lazy and Lu Kang kept Wu alive for so long. When Jin invaded, the army surrendered and only Ding Feng put up a seroius fight. They collpased and surrendered in droves, Liu Shan's army still fought against Wei till Liu Shan decided to spare the people more suffering

Agreed, Wu was not as strong as before, I told you why but they still fighted


I can work out a reasonble scenario: Zhong Hui and Deng Ai retreat to Han Zhong for supplies, Shu rapidly builds defences for a last stand. Wei attacks with even more troops, Jiang Wei is outgunned and outclassed, he is driven back and back and back till he either surrenders to spare himself or everyone, including Liu Shan and Jiang Wei, die in a hopeless battle with the people forever cursing their names.

Wei turns into Jin and Jin unites the land

1)Fight: we dont know what would happen, but at least Wei/Jin would still in difficult time by fighting both Shu and Wei


Wu would send a rescue force but is too weak to keep trying to help or luanch a campign against Wei with any success. Wei is going to win at this point, long term even if they fall back short term

By attack, I think it means in a sort of open feild battle, not sitting behind the walls. So this is the battle

Shu: Liu Shan fights his first battle, troops demorlised and scared

Wei: expirenced troops and generals led by the genuis Deng Ai.

I can only see a stuffing for Liu Shan here.

2)Defend: All force/country should have its own deffence system. How you can say that there was noone left in defend while only Jiang Wei who went to attack? Do you want to say that Shu just only have Jiang Wei and Liu Chan left?


2) Liu Shan had sent out the only commanders in Cheng Du to face Deng Ai but they lost and died. Jiang Wei and other generals where trapped against Zhong Hui and the defenders of the south may not known the news yet.

I think Wu did come but got in a fight with the Shu generals on that border when Wu decided to gain some of Shu when Liu Shan surrendered

3)Flee: Why should he flee while he still could attack and defense?


becuase fighting or defending isn't always possible and in this case, Shu was dead meat.

4)Surrender: The most idiot and coward choice


I would rather be a coward who surrendered then an evil tyrant who fought to the death! As Sima Hui said, everyone wins by Liu Shan's descion but I want to add that nobody seems to win by Sun Hao's actions.
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Re: Liu Shan, capable or idiot?

Unread postby Beauty Warrior Zhou » Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:28 pm

There was no guarantee that Liu Shan would be spared execution just because he surrendered. He barely escaped execution by Sima Zhao.


At least in the ancient China history and 3 kingdom too, a surender ruler was rarely being executed, except Lu Bu. And I guess Liu Shan reconcidered it.



Also, there's a saying in China that if the liege mistrusts the man, the man must die.


How about Yang Xiu. Cao Cao was distrust him, but never executed him. Yang Xiu became a good strategist when Cao Pi replaced Cao Cao and proved that he was a loyal officer eventhough he closed to Yuan family.

Bad idea in Jiang Wei's case, but it means that the vassal is not always right. Leaders have to know who to appoint for what task. That's why they are leaders. At least in normal situations.


Agree.

Liu Shan, apart from a couple of incidents, gave Jiang Wei his blessing on all campaigns and did little to intefere. Jiang Wei couldn't have asked for more.


Agree too. But... the one that Jiang Wei needed here was...Liu Shan not surrendered to early. When Liu Shan surrendered then what for Jiang Wei still fighted anyway???


Indeed. He became idiot because something hit his head when his father throwed him to ground after was saved by Zhao Yun in Chang Ban.:twisted:


There's no proof of that.


I was just kidding :) Don't take seriousely...

Guerilla attacks by civillians would be impossible as the land of Shu had suffered under Liu Shan's foolish rule.


That what exactly my point here. Liu Shan managed his governance badly by listened a corrupted officer such as Huang Hao. After knowing his country downfall by his own foolishness then he surrendered as well. That 's why I hate this man so much. He was a coward and a fool.

1) It's true that Ding Feng was advancing with an army towards Shu to try and relieve it, but suppose a Shu commander thought that they were trying to capture territory from the dying kingdom. They would be held up there, Liu Shan wouldn't be able to get a messenger through the siege to set right the confusion and no one would be able to relieve anyone. Besides, Deng Ai's army had very high morale from capturing most of Shu. If Zhuge Zhan couldn't repel Deng Ai, how could Liu Shan hope to do any better?


Who was a fool here??

2) No one is saying that nobody was left behind to defend Shu, but there were no experienced commanders in Chengdu to mount a proper defence. Chengdu wouldn't stand very long without a knowledgable commander at its head.


Same. Who was a fool here??

3) As Dong Zhou said, he didn't have anywhere to flee. The Man tribes wouldn't help him and it would be disgraceful to surrender to Wu.


And it more graceful to surender to wei?? :o At least they can begun form an alliance with Wu, since never acrossed to Wu's mind to surrender.

4) The dishonourable, but sane and sensible way. Liu Shan protects his people, Wei's armies are not damaged and peace is restored. Everybody wins


Oh yeah... he protected his people??:o Come on.. can't you see that he just want to throwed away his responsibility and though that his surendering can redeemed his fault?? If he want to protected his people, he should built his governance well, built his defence well, used his source well. But the only thing he did just drunk his head away and when he woke up he saw that the enemy just infront of his noose.
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Unread postby Zhilong » Sun Oct 23, 2005 6:16 pm

I never claimed it made up for it but at least he tried to save the people, losing his freedom and potentially his head.

While agree surrendering gave the best possible outcome at that point i think reading SGZ will give you the impression he did it to save his own skin rather than for the people. Even after Qiao Zhou's memorials he still wanted to flee rather than surrender despite it being the wisest choice for him.

Sure there was a chance he would die but surrendering gave him the best chance of survival. Wu was still at large and so they would try to win Wu over by showing respect to the Shu sovereign. It's like the PRC allowing Hong Kong to remain democratic to a degree to woo Taiwan back into the fold.

Of course Liu Shan would be a vassal and it would be nothing compared to being the Emperor of a kingdom but he would likely live out the rest of his days in relative ease.

He also managed to survive in Jin by being careful what he said


I think this is common sense and not really worthy of much praise and i don't think there is any explicit mention of him being exceptionally shrewd in this matter.

the problem was Jiang Wei was the best Shu had and that is more an indication of Shu's failure to find talent then anything about Jiang Wei. Even with the support, Jiang Wei failed, Liu Shan can't be blamed for Jiang Wei having less troops, supplies then a Wei brimming with everything.

While Jiang Wei was the best Shu had to offer, Liu Shan can be blamed for allowing Jiang Wei to go on too many expeditions which were costly, far too frequent and numerous, got them defeated most of the time rather than just hitting a stalemate and retreating and exhausting the state.

Just because one of your officers is the best you have does not mean you allow them to do what they want. As ruler he has to manage and use ppl wisely.

If he could not observe from Fei Yi's example of limiting Jiang Wei's control of the military then he at least should have observed from the trends of the actual campaigns.

While i would say that Jiang Wei should have been controlled more going on the offensive, on the defensive i think he should have been more fully supported.

Jiang Wei only had control of 40k troops when Wei invaded. When Jiang Wei sent a memorial to Liu Shan, Liu Shan suppressed the memorial and relied on witchcraft to deal with the attack and did not send troops till the attack already began and a tad late so that they were not able to optimally position themselves. When Zhuge Liang dealt with the attack he was able to send troops to threaten the rear of Wei and had time to build defenses and was able to use all the kingdoms resources.

He also approved Jiang Wei's changing of Hanzhong's tried and tested defences. A quick look at it showed that the change was not to increase the defensive posture but decrease it in hope of later gains on the enemy. Thus he approved a measure which increased the risk to him.

When Wei was under siege on 2 fronts by Shu and Wu, Cao Rui was able to mobilise troops, take command and personally repel Sun Quan allowing Sima Yi to not have to worry about anything else and just sit out Zhuge Liang. Jiang Wei had to retreat from his front to save his lord although it was actually too late.

Going from a minor border general to a small army where his talents would shine. I sometimes feel that if Wei or Wu offered him a great rank then he would defect again.

Jiang Wei was a good general, an able man, a better CIC in the field then some people think but I can't say he proved his loyalty. I'm quite probably being horribly biased against him though

Jiang Wei was pretty much the top man in Shu, under Liu Shan. No matter how exceptionally he was treated in Wei if he went back to them, it is highly unlikely for him to achieve the same position in Wei. Sure he could live a luxurious life but Jiang Wei showed he had no interest in that.

Thus why would Jiang Wei risk getting nothing when he pretty much had it all, when the gamble at best would get him something similar to what he had? In the end his own sovereign submitted before he did.

I can work out a reasonble scenario: Zhong Hui and Deng Ai retreat to Han Zhong for supplies, Shu rapidly builds defences for a last stand.

That Deng Ai can Zhong Hui can both retreat to Han Zhong for supplies i think is unwarranted assumption.

Zhong Hui was considering retreat because his supply line into Hanzhong was not going to last and Jiang Wei eventually managed to stop him advancing. Thus Deng Ai would be isolated. Deng Ai took the perilous route at Yin Ping (famous for its difficult terrain) and rolled down a cliff to get there so i am not sure retreat is that easy or plausible an option for him.

I think the outcome of Shu vs isolated Deng Ai is not that easy to predict.


I don't belive so, after all he personally saw that work was done to see Zhuge Liang got supplies, he dealt with the Wei Yan/Yang Yi revolt well comptently, he exiled Li Yan and listned to advice when he surrendered to Wei.


What source says Liu Shan personally saw that work was done to get ZL supplies?

I don't think he did too much in the Wei Yan / Yang Yi rebellion. Yang Yi killed Wei Yan. To his credit he did summon Jiang Wan & Dong Yun for their opinions and listened to their advice and despatched Jiang Wan to deal with the disturbance.

The problem is i don't think he is that capable or he would be able to discern good advice, bad advice and be able to appoint able officers. Zhuge Liang was appointed by Liu Bei. Liu Bei & Zhuge Liang's actions led to Jiang Wan, Fei Yi and Dong Yun being left to fill the void as well as a reasonable general in Jiang Wei.

But after that he allowed Chen Zhi & Huang Hao monopolise the domestic situation while Jiang Wei exhausted them on the external.

Thus when there was good advice he was able to listen to it but equally when there was bad advice he also listened to it. That is not what i would call a capable ruler. But at the same time i do not think he was down there with Dong Zhou / Sun Hao being directly malicious to the people. I think Liu Shan belongs in the not capable / negligent / wallowing in luxury category.

While surrendering created the best possible outcome for the ppl and himself, i don't think it can redeem the damage which was directly a result of his action / inaction. I am suspicious of the argument that he did it for the people since he already made them suffer and did not give a damn about it previously.
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Unread postby Beauty Warrior Zhou » Sun Oct 23, 2005 6:43 pm

Your army collapsing and defecting, allowing Jin to walk into the capital and capture Sun Hao counts as fighting to the death?


It's not about how the war happened. It's just about didn't give up earlier.

Wu was in decline yes but Sun Hao managed to make things a whole lot worse. Like Liu Shan, a waste of talent, but even worse then Shan, just plain evil to the people.


I have told you that Sun Hao was not better than Liu Shan. They were both just a bounch of fools who listened to corrupted officers. Only the difference was Sun Hao didn't try to redeemed his fault by surendering.


I agree, Liu Shan has a major share of the blame for Shu's collapse.


At last, you agree.

I never claimed it made up for it but at least he tried to save the people, losing his freedom and potentially his head.


He tried to save himself... yes. To save people..?? I don't know. He could save his people by ran his governance well properly. And like I said to Sima Hui, Liu Shan maybe considered if he surendered then his head maybe still on his shoulder.

Liu Shan could have been executed and he knew it, he risked his life by surrendering. He also had to be careful to not upset his new masters in case he got executed later


Hmm.... I wonder from where you know that??

willing to throw away thousands of lives for a lost cuase is a good thing?


Nope. For pride and responsibility.

the problem was Jiang Wei was the best Shu had and that is more an indication of Shu's failure to find talent then anything about Jiang Wei. Even with the support, Jiang Wei failed, Liu Shan can't be blamed for Jiang Wei having less troops, supplies then a Wei brimming with everything. Liu Shan can be blamed for the later internal problems and a seeming lack of talent coming through the ranks

Sima Hui makes an excellent point about vassals and leaders.


Liu Shan must be blamed for his bad performance in internal affair. And it was the main reason why Shu was weakened. He must be blamed too why Shu had very few better generals, because he was a bad ruller. And it was the second reason why Shu was weakened. And at last he must be blamed for his surendering so early because what for Jiang Wei still fighted while his master have been surendered?? And Shu couldn't be weakened any further instead of destroyed.

He defected to Shu, leaving his mother behind, for power. Going from a minor border general to a small army where his talents would shine. I sometimes feel that if Wei or Wu offered him a great rank then he would defect again.


Well.. I can't argue with what you feel. At least in history Jiang Wei never defected again from Shu. I wonder why you don't rethink about why Jiang Wei left Wei? Maybe he didn't treat well there?

Jiang Wei was a good general, an able man, a better CIC in the field then some people think but I can't say he proved his loyalty. I'm quite probably being horribly biased against him though


Hmm... same as above. Historically he never deffected again. What you feel is not relevance here.

I would have excuted him if he continued acting like a pirate. Gan Ning proved himself over time as a capable officer. Loyal? Perhaps to Sun Quan and the advantage they gave him, yes


Dong Zhou...man... you say what you feel to much. Gan Ning never defected again from Wu, his loyalty remains there. About his pirate act, well noone in Wu complained then why you should?

I see. You don't have any complain about the loyalty of Pang De and Zhang He. Perhaps they became wei officers, i guess.

Indeed. He became idiot because something hit his head when his father throwed him to ground after was saved by Zhao Yun in Chang Ban.


I really doubt that was true

I was kidding.


Yes becuase Liu Shan could fight on, win and conquer Wei with ease in a joint attack with Wu. It wasn't like that if he had fought on, everyone would suffer, he would lose and too many die. Fighting a hoeless fight would make him a fool as there wasn't much of a moral point to stand for anymore


He was already a fool being abondoned his responsibility to run his governance well. His surendering added his title as a coward.


Men of the 3kingdoms that surrendered: Zhang He, Zhang Xiu, Lu Bu, Liu Zhang, Guan Yu, Yan Yan and some others that escape me. Are they cowards and fool too?


That were each different cases. Why you don't make it as a new topic? We all talking about Liu Shan a coward or a hero. And I said he was a coward and a fool.


I can work out a reasonble scenario: Zhong Hui and Deng Ai retreat to Han Zhong for supplies, Shu rapidly builds defences for a last stand. Wei attacks with even more troops, Jiang Wei is outgunned and outclassed, he is driven back and back and back till he either surrenders to spare himself or everyone, including Liu Shan and Jiang Wei, die in a hopeless battle with the people forever cursing their names.

Wei turns into Jin and Jin unites the land


You forget about Wu existence.

Wu would send a rescue force but is too weak to keep trying to help or luanch a campign against Wei with any success. Wei is going to win at this point, long term even if they fall back short term

By attack, I think it means in a sort of open feild battle, not sitting behind the walls. So this is the battle

Shu: Liu Shan fights his first battle, troops demorlised and scared

Wei: expirenced troops and generals led by the genuis Deng Ai.

I can only see a stuffing for Liu Shan here.


That's your scenario. But the thruth is we never know cause it never happen. How about if when both Shu and Wu fighting together against wei, then one or two new hero would arrised? Like Genghis Khan in Mongol or Alexander in Macedonian-Greek? Or perhaps the new Zhuge Liang or Zhou Yu born in Shu or wu or some kind of other thing?? It's just an intermeso, the conclusion is we never know.
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Unread postby Lexus Fiend » Sun Oct 23, 2005 7:54 pm

Wow, nice little discussion we got going here. This is much better than the usual "Liu Chan sux and cos of him Shu got beat". :lol:
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Unread postby Six_and_Up » Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:40 am

Liu Shan was a average ruler in the beginning and towards the end of his reign he got worse and worse. Liu Shan relied to much on ZGL in the beginning of his reign and thats why he probably ended up such a pathetic ruler in his later years. Liu Shan first relied on ZGL, then Jiang Wan, then Fei Yi, then Dong Yun and finally after all those ministers died he was stuck to making decisions on his own.With no de facto ruler to oversee affairs, Liu Shan seemed to withdraw from affairs of the state, evidenced by his refusal to listen to Jiang Wei's memorials about a Wei invasion. Taking up the advice of a enunch, no matter how trustworthy he may be, is also not a good thing. Liu Shan showed he had potential to be a good ruler in the way he treated Xiahou Ba when he first escaped to Shu and his handling of the Yang Yi/Wei Yan incident. Apart from those two examples of being a good ruler, nothing in Liu Shan career shows him to be a good ruler.

As for him surrendering to Deng Ai, that was a miscalculated move. Deng Ai crossed Yangping pass with a small army, one which i believe could not have successfully seiged Chengdu. Liu Shan had to hold off until Zhong Hui ran out of supplies and retreated and then Deng Ai is mince meat caught in Shu with only one route out.
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Unread postby Zell » Mon Oct 24, 2005 12:28 pm

If i was an officer i would of stood up for Shu till the end to let a dream die so easy makes me angry. even if its a losing battle it may of made some time for reinforcements may be from Jiang Wei or send an envoy to Wu for help or both and crush and counter the Wei forces, Never Never would i of surrendered everything great warroirs such as the five tigers, Zhuge Liang, and Liu Bei died for :cry: , How shamefull :!: :x
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:43 pm

Beauty Warrior Zhou

And it more graceful to surender to wei??


compared to running somewhere and probably getting cut to tiny bits on the journey? Depends on point of view I guess

And it more graceful to surender to wei??


it never crossed about 3 peoples minds, Lu Kang and Deng Feng due to loyalty to the Sun family and Sun Hao who would rather have had everyone else die then be brought to account for his crimes

Come on.. can't you see that he just want to throwed away his responsibility and though that his surendering can redeemed his fault??


why didn't he step down from the throne or surrender much earlier if that was the case? I think he liked the power though he liked luxary more. By surrendering, history might curse his name. What he did would forever be remembered, good or bad and he would be known as the guy who surrendered.

A person who surrenders fate is decided by his deeds and the politcal situation and Liu Shan's crime was not evil tyranny but simply being lazy and letting the land crumble.

It's not about how the war happened. It's just about didn't give up earlier.


Yes becuase Sun Hao belived he could win, Liu Shan saw at the end that he couldn't. Your men surrendering in droves and only 101 men or so fighting for you is a good thing? Sun Hao and Liu Shan got what was coming to them.

Sometimes the best thing to do is give up, if you can not win, why fight? Sun Hao couldn't win but never saw it.

They were both just a bounch of fools who listened to corrupted officers.


well actully I would agree that describes Liu Shan's rule. Sun Hao however was evil, I'm sure he had some good in him and did something good, but his rule was tyrnical and brought great suffering among the people. Liu Shan did it by being a lazy fool, Sun Hao brought the suffering delibratly

Only the difference was Sun Hao didn't try to redeemed his fault by surendering.


did Sun even get much of a chance to surrender? Liu Shan was throwing in the towel, he was not trying to seem like a saint or redeem himself

At last, you agree.


I'm not trying to make Liu Shan seem like a good ruler, he was lazy and he was a major part in Shu's fall. What I'm arguing is he made the right choice for everyone when he surrendered. I'm also trying to show he had potential in the brain department but didn't try to rule and thus the problems

He could save his people by ran his governance well properly


a bit late for that

And like I said to Sima Hui, Liu Shan maybe considered if he surendered then his head maybe still on his shoulder.


whereas fighting to death will only bring death to hundereds, maybe thousands and ruin Shu for decads. Certainly an elemant of self preservation

Hmm.... I wonder from where you know that??


You remember that little speech by Liu Shan, in the novel, in response to do you miss Shu? Had he said yes, the Sima's may have looked to get rid of a threat.

As to execution, Liu Shan was a former leader and last Han emp so may be a threat as people use his presance an escuse. Mind you, had been killed, thats an escuse too for a few years. By giving him a genrous package, it cost Jin whereas an execution may cost for a few years.

Nope. For pride


pride should come before thousands of lives? Shu was no longer anything more then a gnat, pride had cuased the death of Wei Yan and the dismisssal of Yang Yi and Li Yan. Humlity might be considered a better virtue

and responsibility


the responsibility here is to save the lives of many and end a fight that Shu can not win. Fighting to the death for a hopeless cuase is not in the intrest or bein responsible for anybody, it was kingdoms fighting for power and not a morality war that might escuse fighting to the death

Now if only Liu Shan had been responsible enough to do his duty

Liu Shan must be blamed for his bad performance in internal affair. And it was the main reason why Shu was weakened.


Agreed

He must be blamed too why Shu had very few better generals, because he was a bad ruller


Liu Shan not searching and promoting talent played a part among other factors like Shu's pool of talent was very small, that there doesn't seem to have been anyone who made too big a splash for Jin(someone correct me here) and I have even seen Zhuge Liang blamed though I more part blame Jiang Wei

And at last he must be blamed for his surendering so early because what for Jiang Wei still fighted while his master have been surendered??


I'm not sure if he just got killed during a revolt that he had not part in or not or wheter is as you say.

Why did Jiang Wei aid Zhong Hui? He saw a chance to grab the power he held in Shu perhaps? I'm not going to appluad what Jiang Wei did there as the plan failed misrably, the chances of taking Shu back and holding was low and his wife gets killed into the bargin

And Shu couldn't be weakened any further instead of destroyed.


Could quite easily be worse had Liu Shan put his mind to being evil

I wonder why you don't rethink about why Jiang Wei left Wei? Maybe he didn't treat well there?


He was a minor borderguard general, in Shu he was given a good chance to rise through the ranks. Being locked out by his own governor defnitly did not inspire a loyalty for Wei.

About his pirate act, well noone in Wu complained then why you should?


I'm fine with him being a pirate before he joined Wu and he was a smart man but do not find his actions acceptable. Laws are laws to be obeyed by everyone under my rule

Perhaps they became wei officers, i guess.


Yes I am biased but I am a little annoyed that Zhang He defected. Wang Ping defected from Wei and I still like him. Perhaps becuase the three obeyed the laws and didn't play a part in the fall of their kingdoms

He was already a fool being abondoned his responsibility to run his governance well. His surendering added his title as a coward.


I would say he was more lazy then a fool for not trying to run things. As for surrender, I'm getting the feeling we will never agree


that were each different cases.


Liu Zhang and Lu Bu where invaded, forces beaten and surrendered, seems the same to me.

We all talking about Liu Shan a coward or a hero


unless you mean as a hero for how to be lazy, nobody is trying to make him one. We are arguing over his ability and his descion to surrender

And I said he was a coward and a fool.


and I'm debating with you over what you said

You forget about Wu existence.


Nope, I included them in my calculations. Wu can not win at this point and due to their failure, Wei could centrate on Shu. Shu survives or not, Wu would fall sooner or later under Sun Hao.

If not for Lu Kang and Jin being lazy, Wu would not have survived as long as it did

How about if when both Shu and Wu fighting together against wei, then one or two new hero would arrised? Like Genghis Khan in Mongol or Alexander in Macedonian-Greek?


Any hero would be dismissed(Lu Kang) or executed as a threat in Wu. Shu would have to defend for a long time before a hero of that ability rose up and still would have to be spotted

Wu can not win on the offensive according to Lu Kang and Shu's attempts where failing. If they then sit on the defensive then Wei can create an army to attack.

Or perhaps the new Zhuge Liang or Zhou Yu born in Shu or wu or some kind of other thing??


A Zhuge Liang in Shu appearing in time might have worked wonders if Huang Hao didn't kill him first. I would have loved to have seen a Zhuge Liang gain a postion of power in Shu

Zhilong

While agree surrendering gave the best possible outcome at that point i think reading SGZ will give you the impression he did it to save his own skin rather than for the people. Even after Qiao Zhou's memorials he still wanted to flee rather than surrender despite it being the wisest choice for him.


I can't find the memorials, I have read them awhile back but can't find them anymore, thought kongming.net had a Qiao Zhou bio...

Sure there was a chance he would die but surrendering gave him the best chance of survival.


agreed but it wasn't that certain

Wu was still at large and so they would try to win Wu over by showing respect to the Shu sovereign


Who was in charge of Wu at Shu's fall? I get my dates and ruler times mixed up

I would imagine having a bigger force, Sun Hao's tyranny and treating Shu people well would have done it, while playing football with Liu Shan's head

I think this is common sense and not really worthy of much praise and i don't think there is any explicit mention of him being exceptionally shrewd in this matter.


I was probably thinking of the novel passage when I wrote that, sorry

Liu Shan can be blamed for allowing Jiang Wei to go on too many expeditions which were costly, far too frequent and numerous, got them defeated most of the time rather than just hitting a stalemate and retreating and exhausting the state.


Certianly agreed though given Liu Shan's lazy nature combined with having no milatry expirence while Jiang Wei did, may have played a part

Just because one of your officers is the best you have does not mean you allow them to do what they want. As ruler he has to manage and use ppl wisely.


Liu Shan's version seems to be appoint someone he trusts(Fei Yi, Jiang Wan, Dong Yun) and not interfere with what they did. Worked up to a point I suppose

If he could not observe from Fei Yi's example of limiting Jiang Wei's control of the military then he at least should have observed from the trends of the actual campaigns.


Bugging Wei then withdrawing without much harm is fine on its own until you think of how much it was costing Shu. Liu Shan for whatever reason, alongside Jiang Wei, fails to see it, perhaps becuase he is to lazy or deosn't know the full extent of Shu's problems?

While i would say that Jiang Wei should have been controlled more going on the offensive, on the defensive i think he should have been more fully supported.


agreed

When Jiang Wei sent a memorial to Liu Shan, Liu Shan suppressed the memorial and relied on witchcraft to deal with the attack


we all know that was a clever move but alas he hired the wrong witch :P nothing wrong with trying that if he had sent troops immedialty. What do you mean by supressed? As in only he, Jiang Wei and Jiang Wei's men knew of the invasion?

When Zhuge Liang dealt with the attack he was able to send troops to threaten the rear of Wei and had time to build defenses and was able to use all the kingdoms resources.


Zhuge Liang used good defences. Anyway which attack is this, I can only recall the Wang Ping defending one?

He also approved Jiang Wei's changing of Hanzhong's tried and tested defences. A quick look at it showed that the change was not to increase the defensive posture but decrease it in hope of later gains on the enemy. Thus he approved a measure which increased the risk to him.


he might have agreed with what Jiang Wei was trying to do. Not a descion I agree with but Jiang Wei was a good general and should know what he is doing with the defences.

When Wei was under siege on 2 fronts by Shu and Wu, Cao Rui was able to mobilise troops, take command and personally repel Sun Quan allowing Sima Yi to not have to worry about anything else and just sit out Zhuge Liang


Cao Rui was not as lazy and was a better ruler then Shan. Turned out Rui was quite a skilled commander

Jiang Wei had to retreat from his front to save his lord although it was actually too late.


and thus Jiang Wei and Liu Shan learn why not to change the defences at Han Zhong. Once Deng Ai nipped round Jiang Wei, what would you suggest Liu Shan should do?

No matter how exceptionally he was treated in Wei if he went back to them, it is highly unlikely for him to achieve the same position in Wei. Sure he could live a luxurious life but Jiang Wei showed he had no interest in that.


That last bit is admirable. I'm just saying that if Jiang Wei was promised something better(let us just pretent for this case, that this is possible) I'm not so sure he wouldn't defect

That Deng Ai can Zhong Hui can both retreat to Han Zhong for supplies i think is unwarranted assumption.


Sorry, old image of Zhong Hui being able to mantain supply line to Han Zhong there. Also not sure why I said Deng Ai.

I think the outcome of Shu vs isolated Deng Ai is not that easy to predict.


maybe Deng Ai would seek a place to hide with what he had or just surrender till an chance came to escape to Wei?

What source says Liu Shan personally saw that work was done to get ZL supplies?


one that I have since lost so I withdraw it

The problem is i don't think he is that capable or he would be able to discern good advice, bad advice and be able to appoint able officers.


he still followed Zhuge Liang's and co's good advice but it depends who he trusted. When surronded by good men, Shu was strong, when Huang Hao and bad men enter the court, things go wrong. Sort of an average emp...

I borrowed that from Emp Huan of the Latter Han when he asked a close advisor how he was doing compared to the one of old. Sometimes good and bad advice is not so easy to differ if say the person is charasmatic, you trust them or your too much in a life of plesure.

I'm also reminded of Yuan Shao and Sun Quan regarding Jing

i don't think it can redeem the damage which was directly a result of his action / inaction.


it doesn't

I am suspicious of the argument that he did it for the people since he already made them suffer and did not give a damn about it previously.


Fair enough, I'm mostly trying to show Liu Shan was not an idiot but I'm not going to claim he was a genuis or a humanitarian

Zell

I was hoping you would see this

If i was an officer i would of stood up for Shu till the end


pity that you can't then help the people of the land

to let a dream die so easy makes me angry.


The Latter Han has been long dead and the chance for Shu-Han restoring it is long gone. What about a dream of unity and peace?

even if its a losing battle it may of made some time for reinforcements may be from Jiang Wei or send an envoy to Wu for help


Wu was coming and Jiang Wei would be on his way when Zhong Hui is forced to retreat. However Wei had been able to break in, it is clear the people are unhappy and Shu needs reform which takes time that it may not have

Never Never would i of surrendered everything great warroirs such as the five tigers, Zhuge Liang, and Liu Bei died for


unity under Shu-Han rule? With the loss of Jing all those years back, Shu lost its best chance and even Zhuge Liang was unable to conquer Wei. What chance Liu Shan and Jiang Wei vs Deng Ai, Sima Zhao/Yan, Zhong Hui and others?

How shamefull


perhaps but it seems sensible
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