Zhuge Liangs Fatal Error

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Zhuge Liangs Fatal Error

Unread postby Blackrazor » Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:27 am

Hey.

I did a search but couldnt find anything meaningful but : Why oh why did Kongming not accompany Liu Bei on his invasion of the Southland? I mean, they had plenty of advisors who could have held the fort, why not send their best on the largest miliatary action they had ever undertaken?
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Oct 10, 2005 10:08 am

You mean Yi Ling?

Well Ma Liang was the senoir milatry advisor, Zhuge Liang had limited expirence in the milatry, he was a civil officer. Now Liu Bei needed an advisor for Liu Shan to help run the country with civil stuff and to put down any revolts. He also had to be loyal

Jiang Wan/Ma Su where not favoured, Mi Zhu was dead and Sun Qian was not up to the task. Liu Zhang's officers might stab Liu Bei in the back if things went wrong. Zhuge Liang was a perfect choice to help Liu Shan.

Of course in the novel Zhuge Liang was so brilliant he would summoned rain to stop the fires but pretty much everything above applies plus Zhuge Liang felt the invasion of Wu was wrong and may not be too useful in a campign he didn't feel happy about
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Re: Zhuge Liangs Fatal Error

Unread postby Elitemsh » Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:26 pm

Blackrazor wrote:Hey.

I did a search but couldnt find anything meaningful but : Why oh why did Kongming not accompany Liu Bei on his invasion of the Southland? I mean, they had plenty of advisors who could have held the fort, why not send their best on the largest miliatary action they had ever undertaken?


Zhuge Liang was needed to protect Cheng Du from the north. Zhuge Liang had defeated the Wei forces in defensive skirmishes on more than one occassion, only his presence could convincingly deter Wei from attacking while the bulk of Shu army was fighting Wu.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Tue Oct 11, 2005 4:10 am

Well it depends on history or the novel. In the novel Zhuge Liang was against the fight against Sun Quan so Liu Bei left him behind as a way of punishment, same as Zhao Yun.

In actually history Zhuge Liang never once complained about the invasion but was really more of a civil advisor more then a military stratagist. Liu Bei had no reason to take him along with him since he was superior to Zhuge Liang when it came to military matters. He had taken along a large amount of military personal so there was little need for Zhuge Liang to come along. Plus he needed him to run the domestic matters in Yi. Since i mentioned Zhao Yun already he did historically protest the Wu campaign but he wasn't left behind like he was in the novel. He was simply placed in the rear.
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Unread postby Zhilong » Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:22 am

ZL may have been useful in the military organization of the army and perhaps would have urged his lord to retreat when there was no opportunity. I don't the would have changed it into a Shu victory but could have prevented such a ruinous defeat.

But on balance (without knowing the outcome of Yiling) i think ZL was needed back in Shu so that his home is secure.
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Unread postby man4422 » Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:55 am

Zhilong wrote:ZL may have been useful in the military organization of the army and perhaps would have urged his lord to retreat when there was no opportunity. I don't the would have changed it into a Shu victory but could have prevented such a ruinous defeat.

But on balance (without knowing the outcome of Yiling) i think ZL was needed back in Shu so that his home is secure.


Liu Bei was just too sad to lose his sworn brother, Guan Yu.

It is nothing more serious than avenge for his sworn brother for Liu Bei, so even other officials advice him to stop he wont listen.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:23 am

It is nothing more serious than avenge for his sworn brother for Liu Bei, so even other officials advice him to stop he wont listen.


good way to rally the man to a cuase. Liu Bei was angry over it certainly but not blinded given the precuations he took, he needed Jing back. I'm more inclined to think Zhuge Liang would urge Liu Bei to follow the plan by Huang Quan
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Unread postby Sam » Wed Oct 12, 2005 8:25 am

It's pretty much been covered by LiuBeiWasGreat, but the primary reason Zhuge Liang wasn't taken on the expedition into the Southland was because, at the time, he wasn't considered to be militarily qualified to do so. Liang only began his military career after Yi Ling, and he remained in Shu during the campaign to carry on with Shu's internal affairs - what he was best at.

From a novel perspective, it could be that, like LiuBeiWasGreat said, Zhuge Liang wasn’t chosen because he spoke out against the expedition, like Zhao Yun. Another factor is Liu Bei's confidence in the success of the campaign - he may very well have thought himself capable to do it on his own, and left Zhuge Liang in Shu to repel any attack made by Cao Pi.
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Unread postby Zhilong » Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:12 pm

I'm sure ZL was militarily to be taken on the expedition on at least some level since he had a military appointment and had led troops into Shu when Liu Bei was attacking Liu Zhang. It's just that his value at home outweighs his worth on this campaign, especially since Shu was weakly defended as most of the troops were out on campaign - such that a prefect even rebelled shortly after and threatened Chengdu.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Wed Oct 12, 2005 5:05 pm

Well when you think about it Liu Bei had 2 of Yi's best generals with him Wu Ban and Huang Quan so he really didn't need to bring Zhuge Liang who had less military experience. If he had accepted Huang Quan's plan then he might have won it, at the very least it would have lessened the losses that his army took. Huang Quan was one of the worst losses from that campaign. Even though he never did anything of import for Wei he was greatly respected by Cao Pi and Sima Yi as a man of great talent.
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