Zhuge Liang or Zhang Liang: Who would you choose?

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Who would you take as an advisor, given only once choice?

Zhuge Liang
32
55%
Zhang Liang
26
45%
 
Total votes : 58

Zhuge Liang or Zhang Liang: Who would you choose?

Unread postby Blackrazor » Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:15 am

If you were to pick an advisor to help you rule a country, would you prefer to take Zhuge Liang who helped Liu Bei of the Three Kingdoms period, or Zhang Liang who helped his forefather Liu Bang (Han Gaozu) at the formation of the Han dynasty?

Personally, i'd have Zhang over Zhuge. Zhang wasnt jealous of his lords other advisors (unlike Zhuge : cases in point, Pang Tong and Fa Zheng) and worked with them, assimilating their good advice and weeding out the bad. Unlike Zhuge, he cared only for the advancement of his lord and not of himself. And finally, he didnt get involved with the political intrigue following his lords death, again unlike Zhuge.

Zhuge Liang strikes me as an extremely capable strategist, but with somewhat flip-floppy moral standards and a desire for personal acheivement. Zhang on the other hand, stands out more as a strategist of approximately equal ability, but with a higher moral code and a much stronger sense of loyalty :)
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Unread postby kvn_m » Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:32 pm

haha. that's just an impression. he was instead, known to be a guy with precise judgement and actions, with proper moral conducts, and with a great loyalty. in his sgz bio, it's written that he punished whoever did anything wrong, even if it was his own friends or kins, and gave merits to whoever did anything worthy, even if it were people he personally disliked. this is very admirable and an exemplary behavior from a prime minister.
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:32 pm

Zhuge Liang was so humble that he demoted himself when he failed. I dont really feel that someone who demotes themselves can be either only around for personal acheivement or a very jelous person.

What are your grounds for saying Zhuge is jelous or ambitious? I'd like to hear them because I cant think of anything.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:04 pm

I'm very result-oriented in my HR policies.

Zhang Liang achieved results (i.e. Han was built). Zhuge Liang did not. I vote Zhang Liang.
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Unread postby Mikhail » Tue Sep 13, 2005 7:32 pm

I voted Zhuge because of his many inventions. Now I don't really know anything about Zhang so its not a very fair assesment
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Unread postby Blackrazor » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:29 pm

Shi Tong wrote:Zhuge Liang was so humble that he demoted himself when he failed.
He demoted himself in name only : he was still 'in charge' so to speak.

Shi Tong wrote:What are your grounds for saying Zhuge is jelous or ambitious? I'd like to hear them because I cant think of anything.
For a start, historically ZGL wasnt even remotely upset at the death of Pang Tong, and indeed there are even pointers that PT being given Xuande's horse and taking the path Xuande would have normally taken, wasnt entirely attributable to bad luck...

Besides, we all know about ZGL's grudge against Wei Yan...
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Unread postby Cao Ah Man » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:40 pm

Zhang Liang most definitely. He actually got his lord as the official ruler of China, against an opponent as dangerous, (but not quite as cool as Cao Cao) Xiang Yu. It was Zhang Liang, who, (though he lost many battles) helped Liu Bang win over the love of the men of the realm and eventually leave Xiang Yu isolated, and the Han to be built.

I also remember reading somewhere that Zhuge Liang was Zhang Liang reborn or something like that...and Liu Xian was Liu Bang..and Han Xin Cao Cao...etc. Anyone know and have info on what I'm talking about? :?
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Unread postby Blackrazor » Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:39 pm

In an interesting fact, Xiang Yu won every single battle he fought against Liu Bang, and yet still Liu Bang bested him and formed the Han Dynasty... now THATS strategy, obtaining your goal despite loosing, unlike ZGL who failed to obtain his goal despite numerous victories :)
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Unread postby IsbenFaith » Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:57 am

Blackrazor wrote:For a start, historically ZGL wasnt even remotely upset at the death of Pang Tong, and indeed there are even pointers that PT being given Xuande's horse and taking the path Xuande would have normally taken, wasnt entirely attributable to bad luck...

Except none of that happened historically. Pang Tong was besieging Luo county and got hit by a stray arrow. Zhuge Liang did mourn for Pang Tong, he even came up personally. Pang Tong's Bio.

Blackrazor wrote:Besides, we all know about ZGL's grudge against Wei Yan...

I don't think there was a grudge, not that I can find...


Anywho, I'm with Lady Wu, though I'm not as cynical about Zhuge Liang since he did so much to establish, maintain, and basically exist as Shu. But Zhang Liang was a true military genius, IMO.
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Unread postby Zhilong » Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:12 am

Blackrazor wrote:Besides, we all know about ZGL's grudge against Wei Yan...


Evidence for this?

What political intrigue was ZGL involved in after Liu Bei's death? Did Zhang Liang not aid one of the princes in gaining Liu Bang's favour?

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Personally i would be equally happy with both as advisors. Since the role is that of advisor to rule a country i think Zhuge Liang did admirably considering the mess his former lord left him. To be able to rule strictly and still be so popular was quite remarkable i thought.

Do advisors that help you rule a country need to be very skilled in military strategy?

I also think it is not a fair comparison when you compare Zhuge Liang to Zhang Liang and neglect to mention that others were involved in the defeat of Xiang Yu. Did Zhuge Liang have a Han Xin?

Another area we should consider is how they died. ZGL dedicated his life to the cause of his lord and died on campaign while trying to fulfil that. Zhang Liang effectively retreated from court and was confined to a small locality and ended up starving himself to death with delusional dreams.
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