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Cao Cao and Zhuge Liang

Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 2:04 am
by ShuWeiYan
I made this topic based on a show which I saw. The 1st epidsoe was talking about Cao Cao and th 2nd epidsoe was talking about Zhuge Liang. They were both the two most powerful figures in the TK era. Both were noted for their great achievements as Prime Minister. But the major difference was that Cao Cao was noted as a tyrant while on the other hand, Zhuge Liang was truly a loyal servant. To me, it is true for that Cao Cao was just giving out orders without Emperor Xian's consent and Zhuge Liang was given full power of both the court and the military because of his past achievements with Liu Bei. Zhuge Liang has made this oath to Liu Bei on Liu Bei's deathbed: 鞠躬盡瘁,死而後已. He did what he had swore because Zhuge Liang personally administered every single court affairs. Zhuge Liang had fulfilled his "鞠躬盡瘁,死而後已" oath to Liu Bei when he died. So that's makes him a true loyal servant.

鞠躬盡瘁,死而後已 mean I shall serve till the day of my death. I'm a bad translator. I'd be grateful if some one would properly translate it for me.

Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 2:08 am
by Sang
Loyal to what though? To the emperor of the Han Dynasty? If to the Han, I say Cao Cao.

By the way, its episode.

Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 2:16 am
by Mikhail
Zhuge... part bias and partly because I dont think Zhuge had any major ambitions. Cao Cao to me was another Sima Yi...

Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 2:32 am
by ShuWeiYan
Zhuge Liang is a man of honor. It is normal to see a man of honor to have ambitions. Zhuge Liang does what he has swore to Liu Bei and he fulfilled it to the death. Zhuge Liang is loyal to his oath and the Liu family.

Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 8:13 am
by Dong Zhou
Um this is a bit unfair, Zhuge Liang was a officer of a warlord, his goal was to unite the land under Liu Bei/Shan. Though I have heard arguments of userping power from Li Yan/Liu Shan, he does seem to control the court. He was not going to risk internal conflict bybseizing control and under Shan could have pretty much what he wanted. To his credit, he didn't use his postion to make himself or his family rich.

Cao Cao was a warlord who used the Han as a puppet. Who is he meant to be loyal too again? I prefer Cao Cao over Zhuge Liang but as Cao Cao was serving himself and Zhuge Liang was serving a warlord, loyalty was an issue for only one of them

Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 10:56 am
by Zhilong
ZL died and had some acres of land and handed power back to the throne. Cao Cao had a superprovince and passed it on to his heir who was promptly in a position to usurp.

ZL inherited the power from Liu Bei. This was not so in the case of Cao Cao.

Cao Cao issued orders in the name of the Han court so he cannot have his cake and eat it. If he is going to use Han titles then he cannot simultaneously claim he is not subject to Han laws.

Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 11:36 am
by Shi Tong
Cao Cao was a warlord who used the Han as a puppet. Who is he meant to be loyal too again? I prefer Cao Cao over Zhuge Liang but as Cao Cao was serving himself and Zhuge Liang was serving a warlord, loyalty was an issue for only one of them


If he was the prime minister of Han, then he should have been loyal to the emperor of Han. If he wanted his own empire and become his own emperor then he should have broken away from the Han completetly because he shouldn't be using Han titles if he's not loyal to Han.

He also made himself a King while serving under the Han throne as prime minister, and it's only Liu's who can become kings or emperor's under the Han dynasty.

Therefore we can say that Zhuge Liang was loyal to Liu Bei and didn't call himself a king under Liu Bei/ Chan/ Shan, he might have wielded lots of power, but that was given to him by Liu Bei on his death bed.

By the way, its episode.


I would imagine that it was a typo, everyone makes them now and again.

Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 1:34 pm
by Dong Zhou
Cao Cao issued orders in the name of the Han court so he cannot have his cake and eat it. If he is going to use Han titles then he cannot simultaneously claim he is not subject to Han laws.


The Han's use was now as a puppet, Cao Cao the puppet master. Cao Cao couldn't/wasn't willing to take over control as Emp till land was united. He can have his cake and eat it or should we mesure Dong, Li Jue, Liang family and the eunuchs for their loyalty.

Cao Cao served himself and used the Han as a puppet for polotical reasons, why should he be loyal to Xian exactly? If the Colation won't back Xian as legitmate till they had to, I think there might be problems.

ZL inherited the power from Liu Bei. This was not so in the case of Cao Cao.


right Zhuge gained his power by years of loyal service whereas Cao Cao conquereds lands to rule during a troubled time.

If he was the prime minister of Han, then he should have been loyal to the emperor of Han


right so by taking a title to gain support and control, you are supposed to be loyal to a corrupt and doomed dynasty. Ideal but not how things seem to have been.

. If he wanted his own empire and become his own emperor then he should have broken away from the Han completetly because he shouldn't be using Han titles if he's not loyal to Han.


now what happend when Yuan Shu did that?

and it's only Liu's who can become kings or emperor's under the Han dynasty.


now the change in the ruler either means diffrent thinking or the dynasty has no power and someone is using the dying dynasty for his purposes.

This contest is comparing a loyal minister to two warlords(Liu Bei and Liu Shan) vs a warlord using a dying dynasty as a puppet. This isn't going to be a contest

voted for Zhuge

Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 3:52 pm
by Lord Cao Mengde
I'd vote for Zhuge Liang, because Cao Cao was the head of the kingdom, not a servant of it...so there's nobody really to be loyal to but himself. Unless you mean the han then I'd say Cao Cao because during the Han's period after Dong Zhuo where is still held power, Kongming was a farmer in Longzhong. Whereas Cao Cao was the prime minister.

Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:34 am
by Zhilong
The Han's use was now as a puppet, Cao Cao the puppet master.

= Disloyal. He can't act that way and be called loyal.

He can have his cake and eat it or should we mesure Dong, Li Jue, Liang family and the eunuchs for their loyalty.

Why should they be exempt from judgement?

Cao Cao served himself and used the Han as a puppet for polotical reasons, why should he be loyal to Xian exactly?

The reasons for him serving the Han are irrelevant. What we need to know is that his status was that of a vassal but he was not acting loyal.[/quote]