Cao Cao and Zhuge Liang

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Who's the true loyal servant?

Cao Cao
8
24%
Zhuge Liang
25
76%
 
Total votes : 33

Unread postby Shi Tong » Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:28 pm

I agree, if Zhuge Liang was someone who was disloyal or at the very least badly behaved then we would see him do things which were unacceptable.

For instance, Cao Cao is Prime Minister, this is a Han title, which is supposed to be handed out by the emperor. Thing is, he uses that Han title, but at the same time uses the emperor for what he can get, and on the other hand stops the emperor doing anything that he wants to do.

With Zhuge Liang you'll find that he was very humble. Something that Cao Cao never was. Zhuge Liang demoted himself because he knew he'd done wrong. I dont see Cao Cao demoting himself after the hidious defeat at Chi Bi. Also, if you look at Zhuge Liang's life, Liu Bei makes many decisions which are influenced by Zhuge Liang, but they're never imposed upon Liu Bei. Cao Cao completely smothers Emperor Xian's actions and doesn't allow him any freedom, to the extent of doing away with his wife and making him marry his daughter.

Suppose Zhuge Liang's son, Zhuge Zhan, usurped the throne, taking advantage of Liu Shan's corruptness and general uselessness.


OK, your point is a good idea, but I think it would only make people look upon Zhuge Liang as disloyal if Zhuge Liang had done such things as install Zhuge Zhan as a very high official, or that he'd married his daughter to Liu after killing his emperess.

After all, a main part of Cao Cao's "evilness" comes from his having prepared the way for his son to usurp Xian's throne.


I dont concider Cao Cao evil because of what Cao Pi did. I do concider him disloyal to Xian for making him marry his daughter and executing his empress. This is not loyal to Han.

I mean, Cao Cao stablized the Han territory (well, the Central Plains), rebuilt the economy, created jobs, defended the borders against the barbarians, purged the court of dissendents, and sought to reunite the world. Zhuge Liang did the same too.


Cao Cao's and Zhuge Liang's actions on stabalizing China have nothing to do with the amount of loyalty they showed to their leaders has no influence on my ideas of how loyal these people were. After all, we can concider Xi Shu as loyal but he's forced to go to Cao Cao after the fake letter, he just wont work for him. We concider Guan Yu as loyal as well, but we dont bring in weather or not he was hot headed or how outrageously he treated the Wu emisary when we're concidering his loyalty.
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Unread postby ShuWeiYan » Sat Sep 10, 2005 10:19 pm

I agree because Cao Cao was loyal to the emperor after he moved the capital to Xu Chang and then he showed his true colors after he executed Lu Bu. Because Cao Cao sees no threats after Lu Bu's death, he then decided to focus on Liu Bei, who is also in Xu Chang. He wanted to eliminated him a while ago, but he took it back because he doesn't want to have a bad impression in terms of having visitors. Cao Cao began making all of those false direct orders from the Emperor after becoming Prime Minister of the Han. He killed loyal Han officals and their families had to suffer the same fate because he didn't want to put his life in danger if he spared their families. We seen MengDe's disloyalty to Xian at the extent where he killed the Empress and made his daughter Empress and demanding the rank of king, which is only given to members of the Liu-Han. Although he is a disloyal tyrant, he did all of this for the land. He, too, wanted peace, but not in the way of Liu Bei's method of bring the land in virtue. He is loyal to the land and the Han, but it is just that not everyone can see it in his way. If he was truly disloyal, he could've usurped the throne a long time ago. He didn't have to leave the job for Cao Pi. He could've finished the Han really easy.
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Unread postby Zhilong » Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:47 pm

ShuWeiYan wrote:If he was truly disloyal, he could've usurped the throne a long time ago. He didn't have to leave the job for Cao Pi. He could've finished the Han really easy.


1 You don't have to usurp to be disloyal.

2 It is already an established convention that you leave the usurping to your son and it is wiser to do it once you have full control.
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Unread postby Mikhail » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:04 pm

Zhilong wrote:
ShuWeiYan wrote:If he was truly disloyal, he could've usurped the throne a long time ago. He didn't have to leave the job for Cao Pi. He could've finished the Han really easy.


1 You don't have to usurp to be disloyal.

2 It is already an established convention that you leave the usurping to your son and it is wiser to do it once you have full control.


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Unread postby ShuWeiYan » Tue Sep 13, 2005 12:27 am

That is right. But Cao Cao is still nonetheless loyal to the land. It's just that he's a bad tyrant/dictator.
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Unread postby Lord Bio » Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:25 am

ShuWeiYan wrote:That is right. But Cao Cao is still nonetheless loyal to the land. It's just that he's a bad tyrant/dictator.


Please explain that ShuWeiYan. How do you consider Cao Cao "loyal to the land?" While I'll cernatinly grant you a maybe on that, I would like to hear your reasoning. Also why do you consider a bad tyrant/dictator? This is where I will have to disagree with you. I don't consider him a tyran or dictator at all, certainly not like Dong Zhuo. If you could show some things that would make Cao Cao considered a tyrant, it would be better, instead of just stating it.
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:41 am

The question is who is a loyal servant anyway, it's not really strictly speaking supposed to be about weather or not Cao Cao was good for China. More like who was more loyal to their lord (ie. Liu Bei and Xian the Han emperor)

Therefore we could say that Cao Cao was probably a stablising influence on China's northern plains but he wasn't elsewhere in China, but it doesn't make him loyal to Xian.
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Unread postby Liu Li » Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:34 am

Zhuge Liang. Even though he was given many opportunities to take over Shu after Liu Bei's death, he remained loyal to the end. :D
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Unread postby TheRealWolfman » Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:54 am

i say Cao Cao. He acted as a bodyguard to the young emporer. He guided the emporer till the Han was disbanded, and acted(i'm guessing), maybe as a father to him.
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Unread postby Zhao Yun '87 » Sat Mar 25, 2006 7:10 am

To everyone saying Zhuge because Cao Cao was a leader not a servent you are technically wrong. He was supposed to be a servant of the Han. The fact that so many people think he was his own ruler shows how disloyal he was.

And in no way did he act like a father. He had the emperor's wife killed!
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