Sun Ce and Cao Cao

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Sun Ce and Cao Cao

Unread postby roleblackman » Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:12 am

Out of these two men, who do you think the better leader was? I am very Sun Ce biased, since he's my favorite officer, so i'll say Sun Ce; even knowing that Cao Cao was a frickin pimp as well...
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Unread postby Jordan » Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:29 am

I like Cao Cao better. Sun Ce conquered Yangzhou which was not an easy task but Cao Cao conquered the entire central plains which was as or more difficult. I think had Sun Ce lived longer he might have been able to take Jingzhou and Shou Chun+other northern cities though maybe. However then Sun Quan might not have been chosen as heir and Wu would not have as good a leader after Ce's death...

Overall I think Cao Cao is wiser and a better leader. He also had a great staff of advisors and stuff.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Mon Aug 29, 2005 4:08 am

Cao Cao by far. The people he fought were far more talented then anyone that Sun Ce fought against. Sun Ce showed talent but takning Yang wasn't nearly as impressive as many people like to think it was. Sun Ce's biggest and only challenge was defeating Liu Yao who probably had an army of around 15-20 thousand soldiers with the 6 thousand soldiers that he had. Liu Yao's army had been fighitng Yuan Shu for quite a long time by then and had basicly been fighitng to a draw when Sun Ce arrived. Defeating Liu Yao was impressive given that he was outnumbered 2 or 3 to 1. But after that he basicly was picking off minor threats all of whom he outnumbered. Cao Cao on the other hand fought against the greatest lords of the land and defeated them all. People like to mock people like Lu Bu or Yuan Shao but they were very talented leaders who could have defeated just about anyone. If Cao Cao hadn't defeated Yuan Shao then nothing would have stopped him not even Sun Ce.
Not that i don't like or respect Sun Ce but in this case Cao Cao is clearly superior.
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Unread postby Elitemsh » Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:54 am

I also think Cao Cao was a far better leader. He had a cunning nature that most leaders could not nearly rival. In fact I would say most of his success would be attributed to his cunning. Since Sun Ce was only around for a short time he cannot realistically be compared to someone like Cao Cao.
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Unread postby REMIX » Mon Aug 29, 2005 11:19 am

Definitely Cao Cao "the hero of chaos". He conquered the entire central plains and inspired many great officers to join his army. Sun Ce conquered Yang by defeating Liu Yao, Yan Baihu and Wang Kuang, the fight against Liu Yao was impressive as he had less men but i think the campaign on Yuan Shao by Cao Cao was even more impressive as Cao Cao also had less men and managed to defeat a massive army of Yuan Shao's who also had many tactical advantages.
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Unread postby MarvelousLingTong!!!!!! » Mon Aug 29, 2005 4:41 pm

REMIX wrote:Definitely Cao Cao "the hero of chaos". He conquered the entire central plains and inspired many great officers to join his army. Sun Ce conquered Yang by defeating Liu Yao, Yan Baihu and Wang Kuang, the fight against Liu Yao was impressive as he had less men but i think the campaign on Yuan Shao by Cao Cao was even more impressive as Cao Cao also had less men and managed to defeat a massive army of Yuan Shao's who also had many tactical advantages.


I think you mean Wang Lang.
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Unread postby REMIX » Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:29 pm

Yea, i did, sorry. Wang Lang not Wang Kuang*
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Unread postby roleblackman » Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:30 pm

yeah Cao Cao is amazing for defeating Yuan Shao. But, Sun Ce defeated the governor of the Yang Province with a BORROWED army. That's pretty good. Also, had Sun Ce not helped out in the Coalition against Yuan Shu, Yuan Shu would have still had a chance, but Sun Ce's armada surrounded his retreat. But Cao Cao was amazing... very few can stand up to him.
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Unread postby SYL » Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:44 pm

Sun Ce defeated pirates, brigands, and weak men with small armies and disloyal officers. The state he created was inefficient and muddled. While a good general, he was only an average governor. Cao Cao, on the other hand, defeated many worthy rivals across China and founded a lasting and strong state. He could lead armies well, but was also a master of skulduggery, ingenuity, and plain-hearted ruthlessness.

There really is no contest. Sun Ce was a petty warlord. An above average one, but still nothing more. Cao Cao was the most powerful man in China, and deservedly so.
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Unread postby roleblackman » Mon Aug 29, 2005 11:26 pm

You don't give Sun Ce much credit. If he was such a petty warlord, why is it that Cao Cao was afraid of him and saw in him a GREAT rival?

Small armies and brigands? True, Sun Ce got rid of pieces of junk like that, but you forget he completely annihilated Huang Zu. Had he lived longer, Liu Biao would not own Jing, it would be owned by Sun Ce... and Liu Zhang would also be sudjugated by Sun Ce as well.

Ce wasn't a petty warlord, in fact, he's one of the best i think. But, Cao Cao was probably the overall best one... like i said, im biased, Sun Ce is my favorite character.
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