Liu Bei Really The Protagonist?

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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:43 pm

Any reason you hold this view? Is there any more or less evidence for the above claim than any other from the period? Just because Liu Bei is the 'popular' ruler of the SGZ period does not mean neither he nor his Brothers committed atrocities that they deemed necessary


I find most historical sources make no mention of it and considering they where Jin, wouldn't they have added these things in if true?

I have not heard of the book you used but I have only ever heard the killings under legends or folktale things. None of the respected sources include such a thing as far as I'm aware, SGZ certainly doesn't

Oh and they never historically swore brotherhood so that is impossible
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Re: Liu Bei Really The Protagonist?

Unread postby Mi Heng » Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:49 pm

Blackrazor wrote:
Just wondering why Liu Bei is normally seen as a virtuous protagonist of the series, and why Luo Guozhang, Mao and others provide mostly a positive view of him and his men? After all, they did things that, had Cao Cao done them, would have been used as an example of villainy... For example : Xuande ate the butchered remains of a mans wife and when he found out, rather than be indignant at the wrongdoing, was full of praise for the man??? And even with his generals : Guan Yu and Zhang Fei both butchered each others respective families (bar a few sisters-in-law) after the Peach Garden Accord in order to remove any ties to any other family other than the 3 Brothers...



These would exemplify Liu Bei's acceptance of extreme acts of devotion to him -- but I'm not sure that this makes him any less virtuous -- especially in a lawless world where loyalt is the only antidote to anarchy. What about Liu Bei's own parents/siblings/uncles/cousins ? Can someone remember what happened to them ?

I'm also wondering if anyone remembers whether any conspiracies or assasination attempts were directed towards Liu Bei (Cao Cao seemed to have been a frequent target ) Do any historical accounts mention this ?
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Unread postby Jordan » Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:20 pm

I'm also wondering if anyone remembers whether any conspiracies or assasination attempts were directed towards Liu Bei (Cao Cao seemed to have been a frequent target ) Do any historical accounts mention this ?


I was just thinking this the other day. I do remember one. I think Zhou Yu tried to kill him in the book. This might just be legend though.
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Re: Liu Bei Really The Protagonist?

Unread postby KingOfWei » Sun May 15, 2011 6:00 am

I think it has to do with Liu Bei's sense of benevolence and virtue, and that his goal was to restore the Han to it's former glory.
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Re: Liu Bei Really The Protagonist?

Unread postby Qu Hui » Sun May 15, 2011 6:04 am

KingOfWei wrote:I think it has to do with Liu Bei's sense of benevolence and virtue, and that his goal was to restore the Han to it's former glory.

Actually, that is just the way Luo Guangzhong portrays Liu Bei. Historically Liu Bei was just an ambitious warlord who was only interested in expanding his power and not in restoring a dying dynasty.
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Re: Liu Bei Really The Protagonist?

Unread postby KingOfWei » Sun May 15, 2011 6:08 am

Qu Hui wrote:
KingOfWei wrote:I think it has to do with Liu Bei's sense of benevolence and virtue, and that his goal was to restore the Han to it's former glory.

Actually, that is just the way Luo Guangzhong portrays Liu Bei. Historically Liu Bei was just an ambitious warlord who was only interested in expanding his power and not in restoring a dying dynasty.


Really? So his relationship to, if I remember correctly, high ranking Han officials or royalty or something..... meant nothing to Liu Bei?
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Re: Liu Bei Really The Protagonist?

Unread postby Qu Hui » Sun May 15, 2011 6:10 am

KingOfWei wrote:Really? So his relationship to, if I remember correctly, high ranking Han officials or royalty or something..... meant nothing to Liu Bei?

It only meant something when he could use it to his advantage.
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Re: Liu Bei Really The Protagonist?

Unread postby GuoBia » Sun May 15, 2011 6:12 am

Well, he certainly wasn't upholding the Han Dynasty, was he?

He was establishing his own power and his own state. Judging from the conflicts he waged and his choices, he wasn't interested in supporting the Han emperor at all. Just read any historical biography on him and try to say that he was supporting the Han Dynasty with a straight face. XD

He used his bloodline, but as his ancestor had like 29348032 kids who each had 2938402398023849032 kids, in all honesty it meant nothing.

...If he really cared about the Han Dynasty, why was he trying to establish a whole new state?
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Re: Liu Bei Really The Protagonist?

Unread postby KingOfWei » Sun May 15, 2011 6:12 am

Qu Hui wrote:
KingOfWei wrote:Really? So his relationship to, if I remember correctly, high ranking Han officials or royalty or something..... meant nothing to Liu Bei?

It only meant something when he could use it to his advantage.


Examples?
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Re: Liu Bei Really The Protagonist?

Unread postby KingOfWei » Sun May 15, 2011 6:13 am

GuoBia wrote:Well, he certainly wasn't upholding the Han Dynasty, was he?

He was establishing his own power and his own state. Judging from the conflicts he waged and his choices, he wasn't interested in supporting the Han emperor at all. Just read any historical biography on him and try to say that he was supporting the Han Dynasty with a straight face. XD

He used his bloodline, but as his ancestor had like 29348032 kids who each had 2938402398023849032 kids, in all honesty it meant nothing.

...If he really cared about the Han Dynasty, why was he trying to establish a whole new state?


Didn't he use like old Han ideals or something in his goals and ambitions?
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