Zhao Yun, equal of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei?

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Re: Zhao Yun, equal of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:01 pm

Very big welcome Spurman, like what I have seen from you so far.

Spurman wrote:And also, of the 3 kingdoms, shu was the "good" guys. And "Wei" was evil. It was kind like drilled into the Chinese minds in literatures kind of Germany denying the holucast exist.


I believe it is illegal in Germany to deny the Holocaust happened

And who dun like a good guy a esp one who's undefeated and one who's like so flawless. Guan Yu was worshipped as a god becoz he represents loyalty. And becoz his deeds made him one.


Killing one general, attempted bigamy and a not very good record in battle is how one turns into a God? :wink:

Remember in the era of no telephone, Internet, all these deeds are passed from mouth to mouth, turned into operas, puppet shows. A form of inspiration.


Or made up to suit a culture being formed or political points. It probably helped that Shu's records were poor but really, the biggest asset would seem to be what happened after the three kingdoms and their claims to Han connection really comes to help Shu's reputation. More then it probably did during Liu Bei and Liu Shan's lives.

Zhao Yun feed at changban and at yingli,sorry i forgot the battle name. In 228ad though, the northern expeditions exploits. Against all odds, Zhao Yun delivered.


Yiling. Only one of those really shines for Yun as a man of ability (though Chang Ban for his loyalty), arguably his best miliatry deed historically gets forgotten.

. And of coz his soldiers, the commoners pass on his deeds, repeated generations albeit maybe distorted a little. But definately his deeds were great enough to be so highly regarded by common folks back then to worship his actions and made the author of the novel an ardent fan of Zhao Yun.


A man with no recorded officer to officer kills gets the most amount of kills in the novel? A lot more then a little distortion. I can't claim to know the mind of LGZ or the Mao brothers obviously but I can see plenty of other reasons he played into Zhao Yun.

I know Zhuge Liang was beloved at the time and worshipped. I'm not sure Zhao Yun was historically worshipped? May well have been popular, arguing for the treasury not to be pillaged will do that, but worshipped?

And Zhao Yun was already defended by many historians that he's no bodyguard. He's a true general.
And some said his rank was low? But how low?


Hopefully Elitmish is around to give the answer
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Re: Zhao Yun, equal of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei?

Unread postby AlaCarte » Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:42 am

[quote] And Zhao Yun was already defended by many historians that he's no bodyguard. He's a true general.
And some said his rank was low? But how low? [\quote]

If I recall correctly, it's said that Zhao Yun never really hit above the rank of Duke.
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Re: Zhao Yun, equal of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei?

Unread postby Spurman » Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:09 pm

Only zhuge Liang, guan Yu, Zhang fei, Liu bei and Zhao Yun were actually worshipped. With guan Yu to god status.

Perhaps Zhao Yun is well liked by the commoners.
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Re: Zhao Yun, equal of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:39 pm

Spurman wrote:Only zhuge Liang, guan Yu, Zhang fei, Liu bei and Zhao Yun were actually worshipped. With guan Yu to god status.

Perhaps Zhao Yun is well liked by the commoners.


Sorry, let me clarify.

They are worshipped and were during various periods of history, I do not doubt that. I question whether, apart from Zhuge Liang, they were worshipped during the 3kingdom era.
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Re: Zhao Yun, equal of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei?

Unread postby Spurman » Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:42 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:
Spurman wrote:Only zhuge Liang, guan Yu, Zhang fei, Liu bei and Zhao Yun were actually worshipped. With guan Yu to god status.

Perhaps Zhao Yun is well liked by the commoners.


Sorry, let me clarify.

They are worshipped and were during various periods of history, I do not doubt that. I question whether, apart from Zhuge Liang, they were worshipped during the 3kingdom era.


Maybe. Not said worshipped by maybe truely respected by the folks.
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Re: Zhao Yun, equal of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:47 pm

Spurman wrote:
Maybe. Not said worshipped by maybe truely respected by the folks.


On that front, I can see Zhao Yun being there. Others not so much, Liu Bei had the problem of being an outsider and some of his actions wouldn't have made him too popular I would imagine, Guan Yu was never in Yi and Zhang Fei was, well, Zhang Fei.
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Re: Zhao Yun, equal of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei?

Unread postby TigerTally » Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:22 pm

And Zhao Yun was already defended by many historians that he's no bodyguard. He's a true general.
And some said his rank was low? But how low?


His rank is not low, but is the lowest among the so-called five tiger generals. In 219, when Liu Bei was about to declare himself the King of Hanzhong, 120 of his officers submitted a memorial to urge him to do so. SGZ lists the first 11 names of its signatures:

平西將軍都亭侯臣馬超 (Ma Chao)
左將軍長史領鎮軍將軍臣許靖 (Xu Jing)
營司馬臣龐羲 (Pang Yi)
議曹從事中郎軍議中郎將臣射援 (She Yuan)
軍師將軍臣諸葛亮 (Zhuge Liang)
盪寇將軍漢壽亭侯臣關羽 (Guan Yu)
征虜將軍新亭侯臣張飛 (Zhang Fei)
征西將軍臣黃忠 (Huang Zhong)
鎮遠將軍臣賴恭 (Lai Gong)
揚武將軍臣法正 (Fa Zheng)
興業將軍臣李嚴 (Li Yan)


See who is missing? Zhao Yun. Since this list roughly follows the order of their ranking (except for Xu Jing & Pang Yi who served at Liu Bei's office), one can easily tell that Zhao Yun had the lowest rank among the five tiger generals at this point. Whether he was a simple bodyguard or a capable general cannot change this fact.

Moreover, Huayang guo zhi 華陽國志 metioned that, when Liu Bei became the King of Hanzhong, he made Guan Yu the General of the Front with staff (with warrant & broad-axe), Zhang Fei the General of the Right (with warrant & broad-axe), Ma Chao the General of the Left (with warrant & broad-axe), Huang Zhong the General of the Rear, and Zhao Yun the General who Assists the Army. This again is a list that follows the order of their rank, and Zhao Yun is again at the bottom of it. The authoritative warrant and broad-axe allows execution of generals and soldiers without notifying the emperor/king. As Zhao Yun did not get them, this would mean Liu Bei did not trust Zhao Yun's capability as a commander as much as Guan, Zhang, and Ma.

Don't get me wrong - I like Zhao Yun very much, and he had obviously proved to be both a fierce warriors and an excellent commander, especially AFTER 219.
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Re: Zhao Yun, equal of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei?

Unread postby Elitemsh » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:24 pm

Now resurrecting this topic as I'm still a shuist but changed my mind a little about these three. Considering three categories: fighting prowess, generalship and governorship.

I think Zhang Fei was the worst fighter. There's nothing impressive on his record where he ever showed any skill here. Guan Yu has his brilliant killing of Yan Liang. Zhao Yun, leading a scouting party of horsemen, has his charges at Han Zhong, breaking enemy army lines. He also defended the rear personally during his northern campaign retreat so his fighting at the most dangerous area and that's when he's an old man. He was successful since he preserved the supplies. Therefore I rank Zhao Yun= Guan Yu > Zhang Fei.

In terms of aptitude as a general. I can't deny that Zhang Fei was exceptional and the best here. Thoroughly beating an excellent, very experienced and clever general like Zhang He was an amazing achievement and shows how skilful Zhang Fei really was. Zhao Yun has a good, solid record and he proved capable in some really tough and disadvantageous situations where the odds were against him. In the northern campaign he was commanding a weaker army we are told and since he as a decoy I don't think he was expected to win. He looks like he did well and took responsibility and led by example. Comparing to Ma Su you can see the difference between a capable general and a joke. Guan Yu, unfortunately possibly due to circumstance, has a relatively poor record. Therefore: Zhang Fei > Zhao Yun > Guan Yu.

I really believe that Guan Yu was a superb governor. He lost part of Jing in 214, not his fault. Liu Bei left him with very little but he managed to build his military power to the point where it had clearly been recognised outside of shu. In the ZZTJ, I remember reading lines like: ' at this time Guan Yu in Jing province was getting stronger. Guan Yu's job was very tough with Jing but prior to his invasion I think he did extremely well. Zhao Yun held a number of key governing posts especially later on (during Yi Ling battle and after Liu Bei's death- stationed at the border with Wu). He has no blunders so we can assume he did a good job. Also suggested a decent policy after Yi was conquered. Zhang Fei was certainly the worst because he completely messed up at Xia Pi and lost the city internally. This almost got Liu Bei killed. I think this also necessitated further reliance on Guan Yu who may have preferred to be out on the field. So Guan Yu > Zhao Yun >> Zhang Fei.

Personally I much prefer Zhao Yun and Guan Yu over Zhang Fei. They were better men and in overall terms they were more dependable. Zhang Fei was damn lucky he wasn't assassinated sooner.
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Re: Zhao Yun, equal of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei?

Unread postby Han » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:13 pm

Id say in terms of fighting Guan Yu was better than Zhang Fei who was better than Zhao Yun.

The way I look at the appraisal is this:

Basically, Guan Yu and Zhang Fei were phenomenal persons who behaved like cunts and so harmed themselves by getting betrayed.

Ma Chao was great but behaved like an asshole and so harmed his family.

Huang Zhong and Zhao Yun were the ideal confucian generals : loyal, righteous, honest and have valor. As a result, they passed away peacefully without being betrayed or getting their family killed.

In terms of generalship, Id say its Zhang Fei over Guan Yu over Zhao Yun. Zhao Yun never ever led a proper campaign as a CIC so...

In terms of administration, what Guan Yu was able to do after Liu Bei calling for reinforcements is certainly impressive.
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
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Re: Zhao Yun, equal of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei?

Unread postby Elitemsh » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:27 pm

And why do you think Zhang Fei was a better fighter than Zhao Yun? Based on what?

I don't really know what you mean when you say he never led a proper campaign as CIC. He had one of these roles during the northern campaign. When else could if he led a campaign as CIC as you phrase it? During Liu Bei's life he (Liu) was CIC and Guan Yu. Who else?
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