Zhao Yun, equal of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei?

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Unread postby goldenchild » Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:16 pm

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Unread postby goldenchild » Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:34 pm

but what u should understand is that u shouldnt hold zhao yun switching masters against him. its not like he just up and abandoned him. when he met liu bei, he knew he wanted to join him, but didnt leave gongsun because of the point u made earlier. zhao yun didnt believe in abandoning his master regardless of winning or loosing. thats why he stayed until he was defeated by yuan shao and then he went with liu bei. what would u do: staywith a master u know aint going nowhere, or go with a master worthy of ruling the land and whose idelas were more for the people than for himself? lets b honest here, gongsun wasnt a great leader to have got his ass handed to by yuan shao.
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Unread postby Lord Jiang Yi » Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:19 am

Zhao Yun was every bit as strong and as brave as the other tiger Generals. His only flaw is that he would do anything and everything for his lord and his lords family(note his near death at Chang Ban). Huang Zhong is not amoung the flawless as some of you seem to think. Take the battle of Han Zhong where Huang Zhong recklessly attacked Xiahou Yuan. After killing him he himself would have been killed if Zhao yun didn't come to his rescue. And as for Guan yu and Zhang fei though they were brothers to Li Bei, Zhao yun's loyalty was just as high. and though I'm still a firm beleiver that other than Lu Bu Guan yu was the strongest warrior around.(though he was modest and claimed Zhang Fei to be stronger.)and last but not least theres Ma chao who was just as loyal as the others and just as strong but Zhao yun still takes him overall. and pride of Xi Liang if you read this plz reply
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:13 am

I would prefer to serve Gongus Zan but I belive the reason he failed is trying to face Yuan Shao and Cao Cao while your own allies are making a mess of things, you try winning. Besides Yuan Shao was an able man going in decline(illness I think)

Now as to what has been said, Huang Zhong's attack on Xiahou Yuan worked and was on Liu Bei/Fa Zheng's orders, was he supposed to disobey. I wouldn't say Ma Chao was as loyal as the others...

anyway a historical flaw might be that Zhao Yun s decent general but only really good thing in his bio is the rearguard action from what I can see. Useful but there are far better generals like Wang Ping.

Novel: perhaps his loyalty? LGZ suprises me in not adding an obvoius flaw with a major character
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Unread postby Lord Bio » Thu Aug 25, 2005 9:00 am

Dong Zhou wrote:I would prefer to serve Gongus Zan but I belive the reason he failed is trying to face Yuan Shao and Cao Cao while your own allies are making a mess of things, you try winning. Besides Yuan Shao was an able man going in decline(illness I think)

Now as to what has been said, Huang Zhong's attack on Xiahou Yuan worked and was on Liu Bei/Fa Zheng's orders, was he supposed to disobey. I wouldn't say Ma Chao was as loyal as the others...

anyway a historical flaw might be that Zhao Yun s decent general but only really good thing in his bio is the rearguard action from what I can see. Useful but there are far better generals like Wang Ping.

Novel: perhaps his loyalty? LGZ suprises me in not adding an obvoius flaw with a major character


I have to agree Dong Zhuo. Looking back at the novel I don't see any obvious flaws of Zhao Yun either. All of Luo Gongzhong's other characters had flaws, I wonder why Zhao Yun is the exception. Its proably beecause that even in the SGZ Zhao Yun never made any real mistakes, wasn't an arrogant man, and was a true warrior. It makes you wonder, thought, why he never got more fame then the other generals. He must have small faults, maybe not as good as a stratagist or general or tactician, as some of the others but was left out of the SGZ because they were minor. Anyways, enough guesswork, I have to agree that out of the "tiger generals" Zhao Yun, and Huang Zhong for that matter, appear to be the most "stable" warriors.
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Unread postby Elitemsh » Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:23 am

This is only speculation, however since Zhao Yun's SGZ bio is put in the same section as the likes of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei that he was just as important to shu as them. Chen Shou when compiling the biographies of Shu warriors may have concentrated on Guan and Zhang and therefore Zhao Yun may have accomplished more than is said in his bio. Dong Zhuo mentioned that Wang Ping was a far better general than Zhao Yun, where is your evidence for this? I have read Wang Ping's SGZ bio, other than the rescue of Ma Su at Jie Ting there is nothing particuarly impressive. His bio says he was narrow minded, this is quite a major flaw which Zhao Yun did not possess.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:54 am

So the bio's shared same scroll, easier then having a scroll with one bio then mostly blank

Defeating Zhang He later on, running Han Zhong, defeating 100,000 army and running things despite being unable to read. His pro's outweigh his flaws whereas Yun fought fericly, rescued a child, took part against Liu Zhang and retreated from Wei in NC(though he did well in the retreat).

Of course I'm biased towards Wang Ping, I rate him whereas Zhao Yun just seems average a warrior to me.
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Unread postby Lord Jiang Yi » Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:06 pm

come on people your missing the point of the topic its SHOULD HE BE RANKED WITH GUAN YU AND ZHANG FEI i say yes. and as for my stament about Han Zhong he continued on after killing Xiahou Yuan and thats were Yun saved him.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:35 pm

Lord Jiang Yi wrote:come on people your missing the point of the topic its SHOULD HE BE RANKED WITH GUAN YU AND ZHANG FEI i say yes. and as for my stament about Han Zhong he continued on after killing Xiahou Yuan and thats were Yun saved him.


I don't recall the Huang Zhong bit but I'll take your word on that event.

Myself, I say no, here is why:

Guan Yu? Yun tended to do the minor jobs but Yu was the warrior of the age, governed Jing, Wei and Wu feared him. Guan Yu killed Yuan Shao's best and 6 gate guards. Who was Yun's best kill?

Zhang Fei: had a major flaw or two but he proved vital at Chang Ban(in my view, he surpasses Yun there), the taking of Shu and Han Zhong. A solid career with exceptional moments before hand.

I put the case why Yun should not be put ahead but it probably is a matter of personal prefrance. If I accidently used historical stuff instead of novel here, someone give me a kick.
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Unread postby Pride of Xi Liang » Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:48 pm

I believe Yun was just about equal to Yu and Fei. As for Fei's part at chang Ban yes he did scare away cao cao's troops (which always seems to be made up of a bunch of pussies) but he destroyed the bridge, which is a major strategic flaw as for Yu, he was renown as a great warrior but I think this all went to his head which ultamately lead to his death and the loss of jing but Yun as someone else said it never mentions a major flaw and someone please clear up for me whether or not he was just a body guard and was he older than Liu Bei?
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