Zhao Yun, equal of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei?

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Unread postby Elitemsh » Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:46 pm

Hmm, I have looked through as much Wei SGZ bios as I can find that are relevant, however I cannot find any extra information on Zhao Yun. Has anyone got any historical achievements to Zhao Yun's name that not stated in his SGZ bio? There are a lot of legends about Zhao Yun, therefore he must have achieved more than what is in his bio, it cannot all be because of the novel's exagerration.
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Unread postby kvn_m » Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:38 pm

I think Zhao Yun's best known to be this consistent dude who can get the jobs done.

In the novel, he rescued Gongsun Zan. He came over to Liu Bei's aide and then proved his loyalty and worth at Chang Ban Po by saving the lord's only son. He was ordered by Zhuge Liang to direct Cao Cao's forces when he fled after the battle of Chi Bi. He went over to guard Liu Bei when Liu Bei went over to Wu to marry Sun Shangxiang. Zhao Yun participated in many battles and stuffs like that.

But it's true that he doesn't lead armies by himself. He was not even a prefect like Liu Feng, Guan Yu, Wei Yan, etc. I think the comparison that's quite close to this would be comparing him to Guan Xing and Zhang Bao. Two of whom continued to support Zhuge Liang in his northern campaigns, serving as generals who obey instructions well and were reliable enough to do so. Only Zhao Yun should be more reliable due to his strength/bravery or stuffs like that.
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Unread postby Sun Gongli » Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:39 pm

There are two types of generals: ones who can give orders and ones who can follow orders. Guan Yu and Zhang Fei fall in the first group but not the second group; Zhao Yun at first falls in the second but not the first. Both types are integral to success, but the ideal officer would be capable of both. However, that said, Zhao Yun WAS able to command by the end of his career, and he demonstrated none of the flaws that got Guan Yu or Zhang Fei killed. He and Huang Zhong were the two most remarkable of the Tiger Generals in my opinion.
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Unread postby Lord Bio » Sat Aug 20, 2005 3:16 am

Sun Gongli wrote:There are two types of generals: ones who can give orders and ones who can follow orders. Guan Yu and Zhang Fei fall in the first group but not the second group; Zhao Yun at first falls in the second but not the first. Both types are integral to success, but the ideal officer would be capable of both. However, that said, Zhao Yun WAS able to command by the end of his career, and he demonstrated none of the flaws that got Guan Yu or Zhang Fei killed. He and Huang Zhong were the two most remarkable of the Tiger Generals in my opinion.


And Chen Shou of the SGZ would agree with you Sun Gongli :)

Chen Shou’s final thoughts on the Five Tiger Generals: Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, etc were known to be powerful generals who could fight ten thousand men and accredited to be among the best of their times. Guan Yu repaid Lord Cao’s favour, Zhang Fei’s releasing of Yan Yan out of righteousness were deeds held in high esteem in the country. However, Guan Yu was unyielding and overly self-respect, whereas Zhang Fei was hot-tempered and without kindness, their short-comings leading to their defeats. This is common logic indeed. Ma Chao betrayed the minority tribes and lacked courage; he was a disappointment for his people, what a pity! Having been able to rise from rags to riches, is this not better? Huang Zhong and Zhao Yun both strong and valiant were good subordinates of their lord, like the claws and teeth to a beast. Can they not compare to the likes of Guan Yin and Xiahou Yin?


Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, and Ma Chao all had obvious flaws, flaws that Chen Shou points out. Huang Zhong and Zhao Yun did not display these obvious flaws. However that is not to say that they did not exist. Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, and Ma Chao are the three more famous of the tiger generals, and therefore more is known about them both historically, and more is written about them in the SGYY. Also Fei, Yu, and Chao were known commanders, and when they failed they got blamed for there failures a lot more then Zhao Yun and Huang Zhong, and when they succeeded they got praised more as well. Like you said Zhao Yun and Huang Zhong appeared to be good "back-up generals." Generals that were great to have in battles, but not great to command. Also intresting enough, both Huang Zhong and Zhao Yun lived to be old respected men, while the other three had relatively breif lives, lives that can be seen as full of glory and flaring or fading quickly at the end.
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Unread postby Elitemsh » Sat Aug 20, 2005 11:15 am

Perhaps Zhao Yun would have accomplished more had he been placed as commander for some campaigns. Perhaps the reason that Zhao Yun did not command large amounts of troops is because Guan Yu and Zhang Fei offered to lead most campaigns and Zhao Yun was never given a real chance. Also some forget that the Yi campaign should at least be partially attributed to Zhao Yun. The following is a quote from Zhuge Liang's SGZ bio, which helps justify my point:

''In the sixteenth year of Jian’an [211], Liu Zhang, Governor of Yizhou, sent Fa Zheng to call on the Former Lord to attack Zhang Lu. Zhuge Liang and Guan Yu maintained peace in Jingzhou. The Former Lord turned on Liu Zhang and besiege him from Jiameng. Zhuge Liang, with Zhang Fei, Zhao Yun and others led the followers upstream, then separated to pacify the various commanderies and prefectures, and besieged Chengdu with the Former Lord''.

It clearly mentions Zhao Yun by name meaning he had to have played a significant part. Zhang Fei, as is widely known, went by himself. Zhao Yun must have gone with Zhuge Liang and since they did not have Yan Yan (like Zhang Fei) they must have done plenty of fighting and Zhao Yun must have been used the most by Zhuge Liang since he is mentioned by name. However, we don't know specifically what Zhao Yun did during the Yi campaign because most emphasis was placed on Zhang Fei's achievement. Some say Zhao Yun was a mere bodyguard, would a bodyguard have been used this much in a single campaign?
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Unread postby goldenchild » Tue Aug 23, 2005 7:06 pm

zhao yun could match any general in the 3 kingdoms era as a general and as a warrior. if anyone knew all of his accomplishments before and after yi ling u would see that he did more than any of the other 5 tigers. i found a website where it tell what he did from start to finish. not only that but he outlived every last one of them. guan, zhang, and huang all died in battle. ma chao died of illness at a young age. where as zhao yun fought untill his dying days. he was around 70 years old when he did what lu bu did. he took on 3 generals and killed them all whereas lu bu ran away. zhang fei was killed in his sleep, guan yu executed, and huang zhong shot by an arrow. it kills me to see zhao so underrated. he way by far the most selfless warrior that shu had. even guan yu sought glory. can anyone tell me of any flaws as a warrior that zhao yun posessed?
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Unread postby Lord Bio » Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:51 am

goldenchild wrote:zhao yun could match any general in the 3 kingdoms era as a general and as a warrior. if anyone knew all of his accomplishments before and after yi ling u would see that he did more than any of the other 5 tigers. i found a website where it tell what he did from start to finish. not only that but he outlived every last one of them. guan, zhang, and huang all died in battle. ma chao died of illness at a young age. where as zhao yun fought untill his dying days. he was around 70 years old when he did what lu bu did. he took on 3 generals and killed them all whereas lu bu ran away. zhang fei was killed in his sleep, guan yu executed, and huang zhong shot by an arrow. it kills me to see zhao so underrated. he way by far the most selfless warrior that shu had. even guan yu sought glory. can anyone tell me of any flaws as a warrior that zhao yun posessed?


While, yes I generally aree that Zhao Yun was an all around good general that doesn't mean that he doesn't has his faults. For one thing he failed to serve only one master, as he served both Gongsun Zan and Liu Bei. While I do no hold this against, and most don't, a true retainer should always be by his lords side, and be there when he needs him the most. Also, he lost sevral battles against Cao Cao at Han Zhong. While again this isn't truly his fault, as he was greatly out numbered, this shows that he wasn't also "perfect." I generally respect Zhao Yun as one of the greatest officer of the Three Kingdoms age, but that doesn't blind me to his faults.
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Unread postby Elitemsh » Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:24 pm

Valid points. However, I believe Zhao Yun only served Liu Bei when Gongsun Zan had already died. Thus, since his original master was dead, it was not dishonourable to serve a new master.
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Unread postby simple » Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:13 pm

goldenchild wrote:zhao yun could match any general in the 3 kingdoms era as a general and as a warrior. if anyone knew all of his accomplishments before and after yi ling u would see that he did more than any of the other 5 tigers. i found a website where it tell what he did from start to finish. not only that but he outlived every last one of them. guan, zhang, and huang all died in battle. ma chao died of illness at a young age. where as zhao yun fought untill his dying days. he was around 70 years old when he did what lu bu did. he took on 3 generals and killed them all whereas lu bu ran away. zhang fei was killed in his sleep, guan yu executed, and huang zhong shot by an arrow. it kills me to see zhao so underrated. he way by far the most selfless warrior that shu had. even guan yu sought glory. can anyone tell me of any flaws as a warrior that zhao yun posessed?


Mind giving the wedsite? Thanks!
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Unread postby goldenchild » Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:16 pm

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