Zhao Yun, equal of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei?

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Unread postby Shield of Rohan » Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:16 pm

elitemsh wrote:I believe the reason Zhao Yun had less achievements to his name than Huang Zhong, for example, is because he was not as impulsive or insecure. Huang Zhong was a glory hound, like Wei Yan but not as reckless, he felt insecure due to his age and had a continual need to prove himself. Zhao Yun, on the other hand was a true warrior, he did not need to continually prove himself in battle. Zhao Yun was stronger and smarter than Huang Zhong, he just did not need to show it. Huang Zhong's only deed that gave him fame and respect was the victory at Mt Jing Dun and the slaying of Xiahou Yuan (one of Wei's supposed best generals). Xiahou Yuan, lest we forget, was reckless and foolish so Huang Zhong's deed was not as good as some claim. In my opinion, Zhao Yun was the best of the tigers and had no exploitable flaws as Chen Shou says in his biography.


Like Hefei did for Zhang Liao and Weinan did for Ma Chao, Dingjun was the one event that really cemented Huang Zhong as a legend. Xiahou was a great Wei general, he had proven that quite enough, and Huang Zhong spearheaded the blow that opened up the floodgates at Hanzhong. Thanks to his splendid victory over Xiahou Yuan, Zhang Fei and Ma Chao were able to overcome the main defenses with ease. Zhao Yun was a great warrior and probably capable of leading a small force of men, but all the other Tigers were capable of directing large forces to victory, and great warriors in their own right.

And where do we get that Huang Zhong was insecure and impulsive?

IMO, Huang Zhong = Ma Chao = Zhang Fei > Guan Yu > Zhao Yun
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded, what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
User avatar
Shield of Rohan
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2157
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2002 8:48 pm
Location: Atlanta. No, scratch that: Utah.

Unread postby Famed Hero » Tue Jun 21, 2005 3:10 pm

Zhilong wrote:I doubt Zhao Yun has the ability to command independent operations of any real scale.


My point exactly, in a shorter simpler form, with less rambling like that which I'm famed for :lol:

SoR, how the devil can you say that Ma Chao is the equal of Huang Zhong and Zhang Fei, let alone that all three are greater than Guan Yu?!? Don't get me wrong as I like and respect all three, nevertheless none of them were in the same league as Guan Yu as far as being an all around great warrior, leader, general, etc. I don't want to steer this thread OT and I'm not even a Guan Yu fan (even though I've been posting endlessly about him as of late), but its hard to fathom that anyone could have handled his duties under Liu Bei.

IMHO: Guan Yu > Zhang Fei > Huang Zhong > Ma Chao > Zhao Yun

BTW, I rate them by what they had done and accomplished by the end of their lives, not just a specific timeframe :wink:
Saint Joan of Arc, Pray for us!
User avatar
Famed Hero
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 720
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2002 4:48 pm
Location: Springfield, IL

Unread postby barbarosso » Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:35 pm

Famed Hero wrote:
IMHO: Guan Yu > Zhang Fei > Huang Zhong > Ma Chao > Zhao Yun:wink:
I think Zhao Yun did far more that Ma Chao. Ma Chao was great warrior no doudbting that, but in terms of doing more, Zhao Yun did far more, he fougth countless battles, while they both had their glourious moments, Ziliong did far fr more minor things, than Ma chao and Zhong fro that fact.
"The fine line before, arrogance and confitdence is bearly visible when we hold our heads up high" Me thats who !
User avatar
barbarosso
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1694
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 6:30 pm
Location: Tir Na Nog

Unread postby The_Golden_Strategist » Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:57 pm

I think Zhao Yun was at least on par with Zhang Fei, but they led their unit with pure bravery and strength, not much strategy. Zhao Yun really didnt contribute much as a general. He acted as a bodyguard and saved a kid. He did kill some generals. :lol:

Why is everyone always hating on Ma Chao.:cry: He helped make Liu Zhang surrender, and helped keep barbarian tribes away. Not to mention taking Chang'An.

Guan Yu>Huang Zhong>Ma Chao>Zhang Fei>Zhao Yun
My name shall be writ in water.
User avatar
The_Golden_Strategist
Student
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:43 pm

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:00 pm

Novel: Guan Yu> Zhang Fei> Zhao Yun> Ma Chao> Huang Zhong. Hard one

History: Zhang Fei> Huang Zhong>Guan Yu> Zhao Yun> Ma Chao

Zhang Fei was quite intelligent even in the novel
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 15820
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Unread postby barbarosso » Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:58 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Novel: Guan Yu> Zhang Fei> Zhao Yun> Ma Chao> Huang Zhong.
Yes, finally someone on the same wavelength, this is exactly my opinion, and ranking of each of the 5, (novel wise). As someone above said he help Lui Zhang turn over the riverlands, According to the novel he went to crush Lui, but was forced to join him, where is the bravery in that ? :lol:
"The fine line before, arrogance and confitdence is bearly visible when we hold our heads up high" Me thats who !
User avatar
barbarosso
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1694
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 6:30 pm
Location: Tir Na Nog

Unread postby Sima Hui » Wed Jun 22, 2005 6:25 pm

barbarosso wrote:
Dong Zhou wrote:Novel: Guan Yu> Zhang Fei> Zhao Yun> Ma Chao> Huang Zhong.
Yes, finally someone on the same wavelength, this is exactly my opinion, and ranking of each of the 5, (novel wise). As someone above said he help Lui Zhang turn over the riverlands, According to the novel he went to crush Lui, but was forced to join him, where is the bravery in that ? :lol:


What would you do then, barbarasso? :wink:

Brave it may have not been, but intelligent it certainly was. Ma Chao had nowhere to go and Liu Bei knew how to use a man of his skills. I say Ma Chao made the right decision to join him.
This topic is an affront to both The Man and The Son of the Man.

-Ts'aoist

Ssuma I sucks.
He was okay when he was an obedient slave of The Man.


-Ts'aoist

Join the Cult and receive the True and Holy Word of The Man.
Sima Hui
Cult of Ts'aoist
 
Posts: 1670
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2003 7:21 pm
Location: Serving the Most Sacred Disciple of the Man

Unread postby Famed Hero » Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:23 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Novel: Guan Yu> Zhang Fei> Zhao Yun> Ma Chao> Huang Zhong. Hard one

History: Zhang Fei> Huang Zhong>Guan Yu> Zhao Yun> Ma Chao

Zhang Fei was quite intelligent even in the novel


Good assessment, still I don't think Zhang Fei was ever on par with Guan Yu in an all around sense. I still stand by my opinion that no one under Liu Bei could have ran Jing as well as Guan Yu did, that was the single greatest responsability any of the 5 Tigers ever had to bear, hence why I rank Guan Yu at the top. His other accomplishments put him over the top by a long shot.

After Chang Ban Po, Zhang Fei was turning into a remarkable general more and more on a daily basis. I would consider him Liu Bei's greatest battlefield general hands down by the time of his death. He new how to run an army and IMHO could lead a van better than anyone else in the period. His presence in the van would have been enough to start the enemy's doubts a rolling.

Ma Chao was like Yide in the same sense, although wasn't allowed to do as much under Liu Bei. I'd put him about a step or two below Zhang Fei. Huang Zhong was about the same although he didn't get to do a whole lot either, his triumph over Xiahou Yuan in the Han Zhong expedition was enough though.

Zhao Yun did a lot over the years, but he just wasn't a commander, period. An excellent warrior and bodyguard, as a leader he didn't have a whole lot of accomplishments to his name.

I think I'll shush on this for now, Lady Zhuge would have a hayday with me if she saw me talking about Guan Yu the way I have as of late! :lol:
Saint Joan of Arc, Pray for us!
User avatar
Famed Hero
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 720
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2002 4:48 pm
Location: Springfield, IL

Unread postby Shield of Rohan » Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:51 am

I suppose I was a bit too hasty on Guan Yu. Perhaps the bashing he always gets is getting to me :shock: . Guan Yu was the best large-scale commander of the group, followed by Ma Chao. The others never had a chance, because Kongming and company always did it for them.

As a general in history, Zhao Yun just doesn't measure up to the rest, as much as I respect him. Zhang Fei was a renowned campaigner, achieving great success against Liu Zhang and Cao in Hanzhong. Ma Chao's generalship skills in his first campaign against Cao were nothing short of incredible. Huang Zhong directed Shu to victory at Hanzhong, and the SGZ says that both Ma and Zhang acknowledged that Huang's triumph places him on par with them. So it must have been quite a victory. Guan Yu directed a great campaign at Fancheng, but like Ma Chao really couldn't overcome the odds he faced.

As a warrior, he is probably the match of the other four, perhaps better than Huang Zhong.

I think Zhao Yun did far more that Ma Chao. Ma Chao was great warrior no doudbting that, but in terms of doing more, Zhao Yun did far more, he fougth countless battles, while they both had their glourious moments, Ziliong did far fr more minor things, than Ma chao and Zhong fro that fact.


There's no way Zhao Yun did more than Ma Chao and Huang Zhong. Of all the many victories won by the group, the two greatest were theirs. Zhang Fei makes up by consistent contribution, and Guan Yu with large-scale command skill and consistency also.

SoR, how the devil can you say that Ma Chao is the equal of Huang Zhong and Zhang Fei


Head on over to the Ma Chao legitimacy debate. Dong Zhuo and I have been discussing him for quite a while :wink: . Like Huang Zhong, he stands out for one campaign - his first against Cao. You'll find in general that the smashing Ma Chao gave Cao in the novel wasn't concocted by Luo, though the details beyond "Ma Chao beat Cao here" or "Ma Chao's army did this" are unknown to the historical accounts we have access to.

Novel: Ma Chao = Guan Yu > Zhao Yun = Zhang Fei > Huang Zhong
History: The other four > Zhao Yun
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded, what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
User avatar
Shield of Rohan
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2157
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2002 8:48 pm
Location: Atlanta. No, scratch that: Utah.

Unread postby Elitemsh » Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:34 am

It is true Zhao Yun accomplished less for Shu than in particular Guan Yu and Zhang Fei. However, saving the child lord was an incredibly brave deed no matter what anyone says. At the time, Liu Bei and all his forces were only concerned with escaping, as far as they were concerned the enemy were directly behind them. Considering all the baggage Liu Bei was traveling with, the enemy must have been very close and many cilvians died. There is hardly anyone who would have had the guts to turn back into what Zhao Yun believed to be hordes of enemies just to rescue Liu Bei's family. Zhao Yun knew that Liu Bei would not have blamed him as Liu Bei did not care half as much for his family as he did for one of his best generals. Guan Yu and Zhang Fei would not have bothered to undoubtedly risk their life to save a worthless sap. No other five tiger would have the courage to do what he did, knowing that there would not even be a significant reward at the end. What makes Zhao Yun the best, in my opinion, is that he never fought for himself or for glory. He always tried to do the right thing, whether there was a reward or not. This was the only reason he 'accomplished less'. I believe that Zhao Yun was a truly unique general both greatly skilled and humble in every way. For certain though, out of all the five tigers he was the one with the best personality traits.
User avatar
Elitemsh
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1422
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:14 pm
Location: Outer Heaven

PreviousNext

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Google [Bot] and 6 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved