Zhao Yun, equal of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei?

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Re: Zhao Yun, equal of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei?

Unread postby Han » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:48 pm

Based on their appraisal? As Strong As Ten Thousand Men.

Err... no. Zhuge Liang was the CIC of that campaign. Zhang Fei in Xiapi and in the early phase of HanZhong campaign. Guan Yu during Xiapi, and later on in Jing.

Its not my fault that Liu Bei or Zhuge Liang never gave Zhao Yun the same amount of trust as compared to the Ten Thousand Men Bros. Neither CIC nor even high autonomy. Heck, that retreat you talk about was shared with Deng Zhi in terms of overall command. Unlike Guan Yu in Jing or Zhang Fei in HanZhong.
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Re: Zhao Yun, equal of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei?

Unread postby Elitemsh » Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:28 pm

How was Zhang Fei CIC at Xia Pi? He governed that city and ultimately did a terrible job. He didn't lead a campaign here. Zhang Fei was grouped together with Ma Chao during the Han Zhong campaign. He ran into Zhang He because he was governor of Baxi. Looks like Liu Bei put people in pairs now and then. Zhao Yun put with Huang Zhong. If Zhuge Liang was CIC during that northern campaign then by your logic Liu Bei was at Han Zhong.

I agree that Guan Yu was given much more autonomy due to governing Jing but Zhang Fei not so much. Zhang Fei was senior and his service record was longer so he was rightfully entitled to more. I think you're too harsh on Zhao Yun. There were limited roles under Liu Bei. If you look at the main campaigns, Zhao Yun's level of independent command was second only due to Liu Bei, Zhang Fei, and Zhuge Liang. It was above everyone else. During Han Zhong he is the first line of defence against Cao Cao's retaliating army, Liu Bei or Huang Zhong weren't holding his hand here. In every battle, Zhao Yun is mentioned by name proving he did something significant under the circumstances even in the complete defeat at Chang Ban.

I think you place too stock in reputation rather id prefer to go by recorded accomplishments. We can agree to disagree here.
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Re: Zhao Yun, equal of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei?

Unread postby Han » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:02 pm

Err than who did Lü Bu fought against? The air? Who was the one who planned the strategy from start to end. Zhang Fei. Who was the one that led the troops. Zhang Fei. Yes and Yes. Liu Bei was CIC at HanZhong but only after Zhang Fei initial failure than did he took charge.

No. Yes. No. Yes. And Guan Yu. And Zhuge Liang. And Fa Zheng. And Huang Quan. Fair enough. Zhao Yun defence was pretty great. Being mention by name isnt worth anything... especially in comparison to Guan Yu and Zhang Fei.

Not really. In terms of accomplismemts of martial valour what does Zhao Yun even have? Zhang Fei scream at elite cavelry to buy time while Zhao Yun fought a losing battle? Zhang Fei was mentioned by name by Cheng Yu and Zhou Yu. The As Strong As Ten Thousand Men did not come out of thin air. Im going to go with the opinion of antiquity historians plus the people that live in that time. Especially when one factor in that Zhao Yun history is... ... controversial. Sure.
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Re: Zhao Yun, equal of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei?

Unread postby Elitemsh » Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:17 pm

Lu Bu never fought against Zhang Fei. Someone opened the gates, let Lu Bu in and Zhang Fei fled to Liu Bei. When you say planned the strategy from start to end, are you talking about against Zhang He. If you are I agree it was a great performance but I never disputed that Zhang Fei was a better general than Zhao Yun. I agree with you there but not for the 'independent command' argument.

Zhuge Liang I did mention. Fa Zheng was a different role. He was a strategist for that campaign. I don't think his role was greater personally. Maybe. Huang Quan I'm not so familiar with. If I remember right he had a certain skill set, like he had experience with a certain type of unit?

At Hanzhong He had just few dozen cavalry (a pathetic force) and he met the main enemy vanguard. He still managed to break their lines, fight his way out of being surrounded, all the while protecting his injured underling. The fact his man was injured shows how precarious Zhao Yun's situation was but he fought his way through that. He was successful and ultimately won the fight.

Zhang Fei's shout was certainly brave but he destroyed the bridges and this stopped the enemy pursuing but the key is he didn't fight. I agree that Zhang Fei must have done something to get that praise from likes of Cheng Yu, Zhou Yu. One problem is although Zhao Yun met Liu Bei in 191, he didn't join until 200 so Cheng Yu would have observed Zhang Fei when they allied against Lu Bu but he never saw Zhao Yun. Therefore that's what creates a problem for me. I can appreciate why you rate Zhang Fei higher.

You never stated how you rank them in terms of governing? Obviously Guan Yu the best but aside from that?
''I've never fought for anyone but myself. I've got no purpose in life. No ultimate goal. It's only when I'm cheating death on the battlefield. The only time I feel truly alive.'' ~Solid Snake
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Re: Zhao Yun, equal of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei?

Unread postby Han » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:27 am

To establish peace part 5 of part 1 has:

The Chancellor of Xiapi, Cao Bao, had been an officer under Tao Qian.
He fell out with Zhang Fei and Zhang Fei killed him. There were riots in the
city. Yuan Shu wrote to Lü Bu, urging him to attack Xiapi, and promised him
help with his supplies. Lü Bu was very pleased, and he led his army east
down the [Si] River by water and land.4 The General of the Gentlemen of the
Household Xu Dan of Danyang, one of Liu Bei's officers, opened the gates
and received him. Zhang Fei was defeated and fled. Lü Bu captured Liu Bei's
wife and children and the families of his military and civil officers.

Fa Zheng signalled to Liu Bei who then ordered Huang Zhong to charge which resulted in Xiahou Yuan death. Huang Quan offered numerous strategies in HanZhong and was in charged of Shu Han navy. Their roles were at least equal to Zhao Yun.

And Zhang Fei had 11 men when he screamed at 5000 elites.

Because none of Cao men wanted to fight him? Agreed. Then why didnt Zhou Yu praise Zhao Yun.

For Guan Yu:

16. The General of Chariots and Cavalry (juji jiangjun) Zhang Fei was brave and martial, second only to Guan Yu. The counseling ministers of Wei, such as Cheng Yu, all said that Guan Yu and Zhang Fei were each the match of ten thousand men.

26. Some time ago the Emperor had commanded his body of officials to hazard a conjecture as to whether Liu Bei would issue from his domain and avenge Guan Yu on Sun Quan. The consensus was, "Shu is but a petty state and has had only one general of renown, Guan Yu. Now that Guan Yu is dead the army is overthrown, the whole country is possessed by worry and fear; Liu Bei has no chance of issuing from his domain."

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=22087

Liu Bei also gave Guan and Zhang higher rank than Zhao.

Zhang Fei than Zhao Yun. Zhang Fei was trusted with Xiapi and later BaXi. He was also expected to be in charge of HanZhong by many people.
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