Your opinion of Ma Chao?

New postby DarkAnthem on Thu Feb 27, 2003 5:03 am

Supreme Kai wrote:Also saying that Ma Chao attack got his father killed. Is only partially right. One must ask why Cao Cao would kill Ma Teng when Ma Chao attacked. What would Cao Cao gain? Only a ferious Ma Chao, so to me there is much more that is going on which is not mentioned. And if Cao Cao murdered Ma Teng in spite it only show the cruelty of Cao Cao.


Not really,

Cao Cao was cruel in many instances, but this incident does not at all show any cruelty on Cao Cao's part, he did what any other warlord would have done. Many crimes at that time led to a punishment of execution to one's entire family, and treason was one of them. Since Ma Chao was Ma Teng's son, and Ma Teng was currently in service of Cao Cao in the capital, Ma Chao attacking the capital would be considered as treason and brings responsibility to his entire family, which means execution to his entire family. This was not a rule made up only by Cao Cao, but by the earliest Emperors of China, thus Cao Cao following the tradition to kill the rebels' entire family does not show any cruelty, only that he stuck closely to the rules.

Ma Chao attacking the capital while his father is still there will definitely bring his father to death, and he very well knew that, unless he's been living under a big hole all his life. He lived in those times and born into a political family, he must have been well aware of the rules of that time. Since he was well aware of the rules himself, I don't know how furious he would get about Ma Teng's death, since he should have been expecting it anyway.
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New postby Shadowlink on Thu Feb 27, 2003 5:25 pm

Zhang Fei and MA Chao never duel. I like Ma Chao his Courage is like Liu Bei he die at the age of 49 he never have sons. Ma Chao even attack to Chang An.
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New postby Lord Chuff on Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:49 pm

As you can see from my name, I am seriously biased in Ma Chao's favor, plus I have never read SGZ.

SGYY: He was a great warrior who could have achieved so much more for Shu if he hadn't die of illness after Kongming's Southern Campaign. :cry:
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New postby Fan Of Ma Chao on Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:42 am

Ma Chao is cool.
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New postby Long on Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:56 pm

Ma Chao in the novel is filial and proper in seeking vengeance against Cao Cao, and thus exudes truly heroic ideals.

The historical Ma Chao was much more ambitious and brash, and ended up getting his entire clan wiped out due to his arrogance.

The main downfall of Ma Chao was his lack of a good strategist. If he had someone who could match wits with Jia Xu ( not an easy task ) then he very well may have prevailed, but his arrogance led him to believe he was up to the task.
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New postby Shadowlink on Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:57 pm

I think he is overrated like how zhuge liang and zhouyu is
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New postby Sun Gongli on Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:04 pm

I don't know. He did take Changan with a smaller army, though he of course couldn't defend it. He didn't do much anything for Shu, but still, he seems to have been genuinely talented (though I wouldn't place him on the same level as, say, Xiahou Yuan).
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New postby Dong Zhou on Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:26 pm

Ma Chao as a general was pretty good, he was brave in battle and seems he could follow orders. Hard to rate him as a commander as he didn't have an advisor, how he used advice would be key to rating a commander. Where Ma Chao rocked was when he could use his cavalry, he was the best in the era in those terms, he smashed a Wei army or two simply by use of his horse.
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New postby Tan_Binrui on Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:53 pm

Personally, I like Ma Chao. I like his character. I dislike how people tend to be less harsh on people who were defeated by Cao Cao at his peak, but somehow gather the aggression to say Ma Chao was worthless, or nearly worthless.

He was born from a Qiang mother, so his duty to the Qiang, whom his father had been protecting and friendly with, is a key role in his actions later in his life.

When Ma Teng fell out with Han Sui, requesting a station in the capitol, Ma Chao was given command of Ma Teng's troops. He was young, but not without experience. With his father, he marched against Guo Yuan and Gao Gan, where he and Pang De (his subordinate at the time) defeated the two opponents.

When Ma Chao and Han Sui forged their alliance and marched against Cao Cao, Xiahou Yuan and Xu Huang had already been going about the area putting down rebellions. As many of the rebels had assistance from minority tribes, the Qiang could be, understandably, in danger. Because of this, raising a rebellion against Cao Cao while Zhong Yao (a governor who the border generals didn't trust, anyways) seemed like a good idea. Inlcuding his duty to the Qiang, his rebellion was necessary.

The campaign wasn't entirely unsuccessful, as many of the overlooking summaries I've read here have implied. His first assault was only unsuccessful because the enemy would not come out of their defenses. After this, when the enemy tried to cross the river, minor successes were had since they were able to keep the enemy at bay.

The Record of Cao Man wrote:His Excellency was preparing to cross the Yellow River and the main force had crossed ahead of him, when Chao and his men suddenly arrived, but His Excellency remained seated on his chair and did not rise. Zhang He and his men saw that the situation was urgent and joined together to lead His Excellency into the boat. The river water was flowing rapidly, the ferry traveling four or five li, and Chao and his men rode in pursuit, firing at them such that the arrows came down like rain. All of the generals saw the army was defeated and were not aware that His Excellency was in the boat, and all of them were very afraid, but upon seeing him their grief turned to jubilation and some of them shed tears. His Excellency smiled broadly, saying, ‘Today we were almost stranded here merely on account of a few bandits!’


Cao Cao's SGZ wrote:His Excellency went north of Tong pass to ferry across but did not do so and Chao hurriedly went towards his boat to attack. The Colonel Ding Fei for this reason released oxen and horses to bait the rebels, who became disordered and seized the oxen and horses, and His Excellency was thereupon able to cross, using the path of the river as a walled corridor and going south.


It was Ma Chao's force, and no other, that saw these crossings and countered them. Only through luck of timing and the season's cold air was Cao Cao able to build a makeshift wall to prevent the effectiveness of Ma Chao's cavalry from being felt.

Beyond simple notice of strategic placement, Ma Chao was also one who favored more graceful methods of assault. To quote:

Tales of Duke Shanyang wrote: Formerly, when Lord Cao’s army was at Puban, and getting ready to cross over the river to the west, Ma Chao said to Han Sui, “We should counter their troops north of the Wei river. In no more than 20 days, the supplies from east of the River would be exhausted and they would certainly retreat.” Han Sui said, “We should order our men to cross the river too, and attack them midstream—wouldn’t that be even better?” Thus Chao’s strategy was not employed. When Lord Cao heard of this, he said, “If the Ma kid does not die, I know not where I’d be buried.”


Even though his military feats were impressive, he also could realize when he couldn't find victory, and sought to cede land to Cao Cao in exchange for some of his children as hostages. This is when Cao Cao began to ruin the alliances west of the Pass.

After the initial battle, Xiahou Yuan was his main opponent. His counter attacks that came after his defeat at Tong Pass weren't without rewards.

Xiahou Yuan's SGZ wrote:Ma Chao surrounded the Inspector of LiangZhou Wei Kang at Ji. Xiahou Yuan went to rescue Wei Kang but did not arrive in time, hence Wei Kang was defeated. When Xiahou Yuan was still 200 li away from Ji, Ma Chao came out to fight in battle. Xiahou Yuan could not prevail. The Di rebelled and so Xiahou Yuan lead his army to return.


Surely, taking a commandery and so soon afterwards defeating one of Wei's best generals is not a feat to scoff at. After this victory, he was only flushed out of the city by conspirators from within, who tricked him into leaving to fight when former followers of Wei Kang attacked. This shows two things: 1) Ma Chao was not too foolish as to realize when it is best to stay behind safe walls, as he wasn't going to meet the retaliatory army initially, and 2) Ma Chao never had a solid following to support him and his military decisions.

From Tong Pass to the cities he took back from Wei, he never had a unified army; all of them looking for their own gain, or many seeking to surrender to Wei. Indeed, when Ma Chao surrounded another Wei city, his soldiers refused to fight when Zhang He came to relieve the city, and Ma Chao was forced to retreat.

When he was with Zhang Lu, he was not given the necessary means to recapture what he had lost. Add on top of this the fact that officers under Zhang Lu were continuously plotting against him and ruining his efforts, you can't possibly blaim Ma Chao alone for his failures.

When he went to Liu Bei, he was accepted with open arms, and it was his reputation and previous feats that earned Liu Zhang's army's fear.

Ma Chao's SGZ wrote:Liu Bei sent some followers to welcome Ma Chao and the latter led his men to the side of the Cheng Du city. There was great fear within the city and Liu Zhang immediately surrendered, upon the arrival of Ma Chao’s troops.


Dian Lue wrote:When Liu Bei heard that Ma Chao was coming, he said gleefully, “I am going to get Yi province!” Thus he sent an envoy to greet Chao, and secretly supplied him with troops. When Chao arrived, Liu ordered him to garrison north of the city. Chengdu fell within ten days of Chao’s arrival.


After Han Zhong was taken, Ma Chao was appointed as its governor because of Liu Bei's view of his role. Quoting Liu Bei:

Ma Chao's SGZ wrote:You (Ma Chao) are in good esteem of the northerners and your valor is well-known there and they are willing to follow you to fight against the evil across thousands of miles. You are to integrate them into the Han culture and be fair in your task to reward the good and punish the wrongdoers.


Ma Chao died not two years after his appointment in Han Zhong. This didn't give him time to esteem himself in the battles to come with Zhuge Liang's Northern Campaigns or even the Nanman Campaign. Perhaps he could have been utilized during Yi Ling. But remember, his accomplishments were not slight when he was without a strategist and without unity. How much more impressive would his victories be when he would have had them?
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New postby JamesD on Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:11 am

As a historical general he was almost an utter failure. Losing almost every battle he was in, minus killing Wei Kangand company. He was attacking Cao Cao for know reson leading to the death of Ma Teng and Ma Chaos two brothers. He left Zhang Lu, died in Shu after accomplishing nothing.
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